Ep. 12: The Auschwitz Jewish Center and Holocaust Education in Poland with Tomek Kuncewicz and Maciek Zabierowski

This episode covers a lot of ground with my guests from the Auschwitz Jewish Center, Tomek Kuncewicz and Maciek Zabierowski.  We talk about the history of the Jewish community in Oświęcim, Poland as well as the challenges of educating the Polish non-Jewish community about the Holocaust.  We close with a discussion of the ways in which the Holocaust is used in Polish politics today.

To learn more about the valuable work of the Center, click here!

Tomek Kuncewicz is the director of the Auschwitz Jewish Center in Oświęcim, Poland.

Maciek Zabierowski is head of the education department at Auschwitz Jewish Center in Oświęcim, Poland.

Follow on Twitter @holocaustpod.
Email the podcast at holocausthistorypod@gmail.com

The Holocaust History Podcast homepage is here

You can find a complete reading list with books by our guests and also their suggestions here.

Transcript

Waitman (00:00.531)
Hello everybody. Welcome to the Holocaust History Podcast. I'm your host, Waipman Bourne. And today I have two of my very good friends and amazing Holocaust educators, Maciek and Tomek, who I'm going to introduce to them, let them introduce themselves in a moment. But they run the Auschwitz Jewish Center in the town of Aswensheim. And we are going to talk today about the center, the history, the Jewish history of Aswensheim.

Maciek (00:04.142)
Thank you.

Maciek (00:14.532)
Thank you.

Tomek Kuncewicz (00:28.627)
Thank

Waitman (00:29.099)
and the incredible work that they do in educating Polish people about the Holocaust. So Maciek and Tomek, welcome.

Tomek Kuncewicz (00:38.731)
Hi. Hi.

Maciek (00:39.46)
Hi Whitman, thank you for having us.

Waitman (00:42.347)
Can you introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about how you got into this particular important line of work and interest?

Tomek Kuncewicz (00:52.583)
Sure, so maybe I'll start. Tomek Kuciewicz, I've been running the Austria -Jewish Center in Poland since 2000, so quite a long time. And before that, history and Jewish history in Poland was one of my interests, and this is what I studied also in the United States at Brandeis. So this was for me sort of the follow -up of my academic interests to do something in this field.

Maciek (01:10.756)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:20.871)
in Poland in relation to the preservation of Jewish heritage, Jewish memory and of course the Holocaust. The place where we are of course Oświęcim is a very significant location because that's the town next to Auschwitz but what we really focus on is the local Jewish history because before the war the town was close to 60 percent Jewish. So this is...

Waitman (01:44.363)
Thank you.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:50.919)
on one hand are focused, but besides preserving the Jewish heritage of Oshwencim, we also very much focus on anti -hatred education, Holocaust education, but we'll talk about this more. But in my case, as I mentioned, this was, you know, the study, what I studied, but also of course my passion for many, many years about the history of the Jewish people in Poland, which during the Holocaust, during the communism when I was growing up,

was really sort of a taboo subject, right? Something that was not very much talked about, was not very present. And for me, this was really sort of like an, yeah, exploring, discovering something that was hidden and, you know, trying to find the traces of Jewish past, Jewish heritage in Poland. And this was, this was, of course, just

little traces very often, just a Jewish cemetery somewhere, an old building which used to be a synagogue and so on. So this is an interest which I've worked with, so to speak, for many decades. Since pretty much I was a teenager and right now for over 20 years I've been running and developing the Auschwitz Jewish Center.

Waitman (02:54.069)
Thank you.

Tomek Kuncewicz (03:20.933)
in our friendship.

Maciek (03:20.998)
Yes, so hi, I'm I'm Machik I I've been working at the Asha Jury Center for 17 years now, so I feel like part of furniture there already So yeah, I'm a history major from the Yagelonion University in Krakow, but I The history of the Holocaust kind of on a personal level has always been with me because my there's a family story my paternal

Waitman (03:22.911)
My check.

Thank you.

Tomek Kuncewicz (03:38.321)
you

Maciek (03:49.368)
grandfather was involved in secret education system. He's not Jewish. He was not Jewish and neither am I. He was doing secret education under the Nazis, working for a local coal mine east of Krakow. But since he had a PhD in literature and before the war he was a principal of a local gymnasium, he continued to teach alas secretly. And his first student actually was a Jewish girl, his Jewish friend's daughter.

Waitman (03:52.075)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (03:57.035)
you

Maciek (04:15.657)
his friend's, his Jewish friend's daughter. So he initially tutored her because in that town, you know, in 1939, when the Nazis took over the town called Gorlice, east of Krakow, they immediately as everywhere else barred Jews from the public education system. So this guy said to my grandfather, you know, could you come to my home and teach my daughter? And my grandfather said, yes, sure. So that's how he started later. He become involved in the formal.

Tomek Kuncewicz (04:17.611)
you

Maciek (04:43.571)
like formal, informal secret education system teaching Christian and Jewish kids. That girl actually survived with her both parents. They were pulled out of a train which was supposed to take them to Belzec's death camp. This was the summer of 1942 in the height of Operation Reinhardt. So they were actually rescued and I got to meet as a child, me being born in 1981, I got to meet this lady as a child as my parents continued the...

Tomek Kuncewicz (04:45.659)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (04:54.759)
you

Waitman (05:05.163)
Thank you.

Maciek (05:10.441)
relationship once my grandfather was gone, so the lady was still around and my parents would visit her. So I listened to those stories a tiny little bit, so it's always been at the back of my head. And then I kind of by chance, I started studying history. I signed up to an interesting course about the Holocaust. Then also I got involved in a local Christian Jewish dialogue group in Kraków in my hometown right now.

Waitman (05:36.139)
you

Maciek (05:37.603)
So that's how I started. And also totally by chance, I was hired by the Asha Jury Center Foundation. They were looking for someone to help them run a fellowship for American PhD students. And it was supposed to be just a six week summer job just out of university. And those six weeks are still going on 17 years later. So that's how I started right now. I started as a guide and assistant right now. I'm heading our education department.

Waitman (05:56.555)
Thank you.

Waitman (06:04.555)
And I should mention, I suppose, in the interest of full disclosure, not that we're really selling anything here, but I am both a, I suppose, I'm both a veteran and a staff member of the Auschwitz Jewish Center because I went on the program that Majik is talking about as a graduate student many, many, many years ago, which was a graduate program, sort of,

Maciek (06:25.073)
Yes.

Waitman (06:33.099)
week intensive graduate study, which is amazing, and I still draw on it today. So if you are a graduate student out there who is interested in the Holocaust and is looking for a way to sort of deepen that understanding, please do consider signing up. And I will put in the show notes a link to the Auschwitz Jewish Center so that you can find all of that information. And again, I also currently serve as the scholar in residence for the Auschwitz Jewish Center's

Maciek (07:00.411)
Thank you.

Waitman (07:02.411)
Service Academy, American Service Academy program, which takes cadets from the American Military Academies to Poland. But that doesn't make me biased, I suppose, except that I know that Tomek and Maciek are great people doing great work. So hopefully we will. Well, you're welcome. We'll learn more about that. But can we go back to, I think, what Tomek mentioned, which is really, really important, which is that...

Maciek (07:19.113)
Thank you, Whiteman.

Waitman (07:32.139)
I mean, it sounds kind of trite, but the town of Asvensham has definitely gotten a bad name thanks to the Nazis and the fact that everyone associates it with the camp Auschwitz, which is the German, Germanized name. But as you point out, the city, the town has a long history before the Nazis and a particularly long Jewish history before the Nazis. Can you tell us a little bit about that history?

Tomek Kuncewicz (07:37.061)
Mm -hmm.

Tomek Kuncewicz (07:56.951)
Yeah, sure. This is, I think, you know, before I go to talk about the history, I think it's important to mention that we believe that it's very important educationally to, when visiting Auschwitz, to also visit the town, right? Because then you realize that Auschwitz, you know, was created just in a small town, right? There was nothing unique about this place.

And there's nothing unique about this place today. So there was nothing then and there's nothing unique now. And I think it's important to realize it because then sometimes people have this idea that Auschwitz is sort of the end of the world kind of place, right? Like in the middle of nowhere. But no, this really happened in the middle of Europe and next to a small typical town which had its...

Jewish inhabitants, it had its non -Jewish inhabitants. They lived, you know, sometimes in harmony, sometimes in some tension, but there was nothing unique about this place, right? So I think exploring this history is crucial to also understand, you know, how sort of genocides happen, right? And that genocides can happen anywhere and anytime. And I think that's why we believe it's relevant to

to make sure that Oshvin Chim is also part of the educational experience. But the Jewish history of the town, it's about 400 years old. I mean, of course, until the Holocaust, the Jewish community was present in the town for about 400 years. It was growing gradually. The town itself was for a long time part of Austria and then Austria -Hungary, so in the 19th century.

This was the time of very fast development of the town, but also of its Jewish community. At the end of the 1930s, the Jewish community was almost 60 % of the town. Very present in the town's landscape, very diverse. Many synagogues, including the so -called Great Synagogue of Svecin, which was the pride of the Jewish community.

Tomek Kuncewicz (10:18.375)
There was a tradition that the deputy mayor of Oshmenchim was usually Jewish. So there was also this, it seems, that's what we know from testimonies of survivors, both Jewish and non -Jewish, that the relations between Jews and non -Jews in the town were relatively peaceful. And there's this known story of a friendship between...

the chief rabbi of Ashrin Chim and the local priest who were pretty good friends and this also of course contributed to this relatively harmonious relationship between Jews and non -Jews in the town. So typical town in this part of Poland, of course this was the fact that it had such a big Jewish community was not unique at that time and in this part of Poland and this part of Europe.

Of course, sort of everything changed, the perception changed with the war and the creation of Auschwitz. But what's also important to remember is that also after the war there was a small Jewish community. There was a small number of survivors. We don't know exactly how many people survived, but most likely over 90 % of the Jewish community.

was murdered during the Holocaust, also in the camps in the outskirts of the town. But after the war, there was a small community of about 100 to 180 people who came back, tried to reestablish the Jewish community. There were still several families, Jewish families at the beginning of 1960s, but then gradually these people left mostly for Israel. But also for these people, right, for the survivors,

they really distinguished between the town and the camp, right? And for them, coming back to the town after the war was coming back home and talking to these people. I remember that also, you know, they have to sort of emphasize whenever they talk to somebody, right? The question is often asked, where you from?

Tomek Kuncewicz (12:40.007)
where were you born and they say Oshvenchim, of course nobody knows what Oshvenchim was. So then they say, well, it's actually next to Auschwitz. And then of course, there's a lot of sort of kind of surprise, right? Like how can you, how is it possible that you were born, you know, in Auschwitz, right? But of course, this is not, this was not Auschwitz. Sometimes in our programs or presentation, we use this phrase, the town known as Auschwitz, because,

very often this kind of becomes one, right? I mean, people think, call Oshvin Chim Auschwitz and it's sort of mixed up, right? But I think it's of course, again, crucial to distinguish between the two because, you know, we have Auschwitz, of course, that this is what happened during the war and that's the symbol of the Holocaust. On the other hand, there's this town which creates this very...

important contrast between the two and also as I said before reinforces this educational message of You know, it can happen then it can happen again and it can happen happen here can happen anywhere

Waitman (13:52.011)
And of course, as you point out, the use of the word Auschwitz is in itself a symbol of the fact that this was a German takeover, a German conquest, right? Because the town to Poles is and was known as Asvensham, right? So the fact that we're using the word Auschwitz already is sort of a symbol of Nazi colonialism and imperialism, right?

Tomek Kuncewicz (14:03.111)
Yes.

Tomek Kuncewicz (14:08.647)
Exactly.

Tomek Kuncewicz (14:15.419)
Right, right. And also, it's important to mention that during the war, Oświęcim, of course then renamed Auschwitz, was part of the Nazi Reich, right, the German state officially, it was incorporated into Nazi Germany. It was not even officially occupied Poland at that time. It was just part of Germany with German settlers being brought.

to Oshvenchim, of course to run the whole complex of camps and slave labor factories and everything. But also this meant the expulsions of course of the Jewish inhabitants, but also of a lot of the non -Jewish inhabitants.

Waitman (15:02.065)
Well, and of course, the literal terrain of what will become Auschwitz -2 Birkenau, right, is a Polish village, right, that basically gets, you know, depopulated in order to make space for the camp itself. But of course, we're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit. So what happens, because I think the specific local history of the Jews of Aswenszym is actually kind of interesting because I...

Tomek Kuncewicz (15:09.895)
Right, right.

Tomek Kuncewicz (15:19.911)
Hmm.

Waitman (15:29.995)
I think a lot of listeners would be surprised kind of at the way it goes because it doesn't exactly sort of follow that, oh my gosh, they're sort of the first people that are killed because they're right there at the center of Auschwitz, the camp.

Tomek Kuncewicz (15:39.091)
Mm -hmm. Mm

Maciek (15:45.509)
Right. So, you know when the Schwenchim was captured by Nazi Germany quite quickly, you know, it's September the 3rd that that Nazi army German army captured a Schwenchim and as Tomek said a month later the town was incorporated into the third Reich who was renamed Auschwitz the whole Germanizing operation took, you know took place with the with the street name being changed to German with the Polish

Jewish and non -Jewish population being excluded from all kinds of rights, including, for example, the right to education in those areas incorporated into Germany, both Jews and non -Jews of Polish descent could not go to schools at all, for example. So there was this, there was forced labor. As we know, Oświęcim or Auschwitz then was designated to become the location of the concentration camp Auschwitz.

because of the existing infrastructure, meaning the former Polish army military barracks, the access to a very dense railway nexus being isolated by also by two rivers, Wiesław, the Central River in Poland and Sowa, the confluence. So there are several factors which contribute to the fact that the Nazis decided that this would be the location of the next concentration camp built.

In the meantime, the local population, Jews and non -Jews, were being discriminated against. There was terror, actually, right? Happening. But the local Jews, as many could think, were not the first people to be sent to Auschwitz, the concentration camp Auschwitz 1, which was officially inaugurated on June 14th, 1940, with the first transport of 728 prisoners who came.

from a different town, from a town of Tarnów, which is east of, or the East of Kraków, and those were mostly members of the local resistance, or people who were seen as potential resistors to the German regime. Among them were also several Jewish prisoners, but this was not yet the criterion, right? As we know, initially Auschwitz as a concentration camp was a standard sort of looking from the perpetrator perspective concentration camp.

Maciek (17:56.297)
aimed at releasing the overflowing prisons and aimed at terrorizing the local population, while in the meantime the local Jewish community of Oshvinchim was actually swelling, of Auschwitz was swelling because the Germans were concentrating Jewish residents from neighboring villages into the town of Auschwitz. Those people were subject to forced labor.

Among them were also forced laborers who were recruited to to expand the, to clean up first the site of the future concentration camp and then to also expand it. There were also forced laborers in different construction projects, German construction projects which were going on. So there was actually a lot of violence going on against the Jews, also non -Jewish Poles as well on a slightly different...

different level. Only later with the expansion plans for Auschwitz I and specifically with the establishment, with the plans for the establishment of Auschwitz -Fremontowicz, the concentration camp and primarily the factory operated by IG Farben industry, German holding the factory of synthetic oil and rubber only as they were making plans to establish it and they started bringing even more German colonists.

In the meantime, the plans for the Musterstadt Auschwitz or the model German settlement Auschwitz were developed and they started bringing German specialists, chemists, construction specialists with their families. The local German government decided they needed space for those people and why not get rid of the Jewish residents who were already discriminated against. So they decided to actually uproot the local Jewish population of the town of Auschwitz and they forced them out. First,

to General gouvernement. There were several random deportations of people into Tarnów and Gorlice. But then later in the spring of 1941, in March and April, deportations, forced deportations obviously were organized where local residents, local Jewish residents were forced to report either in the main market square of the town of Auschwitz, then renamed Adolf Hitlerplatz, obviously under German escort of police and military.

Maciek (20:10.249)
and also in the square in front of the synagogue, which later became part of the Osho Jewish Center in 2000. And from those two locations, they were forced either by trains or by private transportation to free neighboring cities, major cities of Upper Silesia and Zagłębie. Those cities were Krzanów, Benzin and Sosnowiec. There were a lot of coal mines there, also other establishments, and those people were crammed later into the ghettos. So obviously living in terrible conditions.

subject to forced labor deportations in ultimately 1942 and 1943, so a year or two years later, most of the former residents of Oshvinchim, Jews, were sent back, but then not to their hometown, but to the suburb where Auschwitz to Birkenau was developed in the meantime, and most of the residents of our town, most of the Jews from our town, were ironically, you could say, murdered in the Holocaust, but murdered in the suburb of their hometown.

Tomek Kuncewicz (20:50.183)
you

Waitman (21:02.269)
you

Maciek (21:09.609)
in the camps of Oshers and Birken.

Waitman (21:13.419)
Yeah, I mean, I always think that's a particularly interesting story in the way that, you know, again, the people often assume the Nazis are the sort of very logical, you know, efficient state. But actually, the what happened to the Jews of Ascension is a great example of sort of the way that things develop over time, you know, where, you know, there may be this there may be one level directive that sort of doesn't necessarily coincide with the local situation. And so you have.

the Jews being expelled to these neighboring villages and then eventually coming back.

Maciek (21:48.745)
Correct, correct. And maybe even to make it even more complex, I should have mentioned also in the very beginning of the war, the town of Auschwitz seemed to be a potential haven for Jews from both the town but also the area and the upper Silesia, because this is a slightly less known chapter of the Holocaust, you know, for those of obviously the listeners are very well versed in the subject and we're all aware of...

Waitman (22:05.483)
you

Maciek (22:15.017)
the initial evacuation plans of Jews from both German -occupied Poland and in other parts of German -occupied Europe, the plans of the Judenreservat or Jewish reservation in Niska near Lublin, eastern Poland or Madagascar, all those ideas of forced emigration. But there's a little less known plan of creating an emigration office in the town of Auschwitz, which was initially supervised and

Waitman (22:23.755)
you

Maciek (22:44.137)
encouraged by the Nazis, including Adolf Eichmann himself. It's a plan which was described by our historian and researcher Arthur Schindler in one of the chapters of the Yad Vashem studies a couple years ago. But in general the idea was that in October 1939 the head of the Jewish council, appointed by the Nazis, forced by the Nazis to be the head...

responsible for the local Jewish community, Leon Schenker was ordered by the German mayor of Auschwitz to set up an office for emigration to Palestine. And he held a series of meetings with different German officials. And at the end of November, he was actually sent to Berlin and met with Adolf Eichmann, one of the architects of the logistics of the Final Solution from the RSHA, so the main security office of the German Reich in Berlin. And he held a meeting where he was supposed to report on this.

Waitman (23:40.459)
you

Maciek (23:40.713)
on the developments. The general idea was that Auschwitz would be one of those hubs where people, Jews from Upper Silesia would report. Then there would be a financial scheme, hopefully established with the permission of the Nazis to sponsor the migration of Jews from Upper Silesia to the British Mandate of Palestine. Obviously a very complex logistical development pending on a lot of different permissions of both the Nazis and...

and Great Britain never came to fruition. But it was a very serious plan and there was a chance, there was a slim chance that Auschwitz would not become a symbol of Lear, obviously as we know of the mass murder, the most notorious symbol of the Holocaust, but it could have been at a certain point, it could have been a symbol of salvation.

Waitman (24:30.763)
And I think this is a great point as well. I mean, and this is an area of debate amongst, I mean, not gentle debate amongst Holocaust of stories. The extent to which there was a plan to murder the Jews of Europe and then when this plan sort of was created or carried out and those kinds of things. And, you know, the point that I, that.

from my perspective that I usually raise is exactly this, that the Nazis obviously are never intending to be kind to Jews, but their first inclination is to solve their self -imposed Jewish question by immigration, by forcing Jews out both of Germany and then later out of the occupied territories. And that this is not a sort of pipe dream. They actually try to do this.

And you've mentioned, you know, three of the sort of the plans in the and the first plan, you know, is this idea of sending them to Poland to put them on reservations, which is the word that the Nazis use. And that's a loaded word, but it's it's the word that they meant as sort of similar to Native American reservations, et cetera. And this is ironically and you can correct me if I'm getting it wrong, but it's it's ironically sort of defeated by a not in my backyard kind of.

bureaucratic response by the Nazi administrator of the general government, which is occupied Poland, Hans Frank, who was basically like, I'm trying to make this area into this wonderful sort of German settler utopia, and I don't want you to dump, you know, these populations of unwanted people. And then we have the Madagascar plan, which again, like very serious people are working on this to deport the Jews of Europe to the island of Madagascar off the East coast of the continent of Africa.

Maciek (26:02.441)
Yes.

Waitman (26:25.739)
And again, you know, this is not.

Many, many thousands, if not millions of people would have died as a result of this if it had come to fruition. But it was not an attempt necessarily to exterminate the Jews of Europe. And then, of course, we have the the final the final plan is this year old's plan, which is the least well developed of the three, which essentially was that, you after the Nazis defeat the Soviet Union, they will deport all the Jews of Europe as well as.

Tomek Kuncewicz (26:54.887)
you

Waitman (26:58.635)
any other undesirable populations east of the Ural mountain range, which in their mind marks sort of the boundary of what we call European Russia. And of course this doesn't come to fruition because the Nazis are not successful militarily in Eastern Europe. But all of that is to say that, you know, there are, the Nazis go through, in my view, and then I think a lot of historians view, an evolution of attempts to solve, again, their self -imposed problems.

because it's not a problem, but for them it's a problem of what to do with the Jewish population of Europe. And then they eventually come to what we call the final solution. And that is, in fact, the reason it's called the final solution is because there were solutions before it that didn't work, right? Which brings us then to what Maciej and Tomek just laid out, which is ultimately the systematic murder of Jews.

at Auschwitz, at the camp of Auschwitz, in addition to the Reinhard camps elsewhere in the region. So if we sort of move then post -Holocaust, and this is where the story of the Jews of Auschwitz begins to meld with the story of the Auschwitz Jewish Center, what happens in the immediate post -war period to Jewish life, to the Jewish population, to Jewish...

buildings and infrastructure in Asvensham.

Tomek Kuncewicz (28:26.791)
Yes, well, as I mentioned before, there was an attempt to rebuild the Jewish community right after the war. There was a small group of survivors, as in other parts of Poland and other parts of Eastern Central Europe, Jews were coming back. There were some survivors, small fraction of course of the pre -war Jewish community. And these people were looking for...

Waitman (28:42.091)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (28:55.111)
relatives, they were looking for their homes and this was also the case of Oświęcim. And there was actually the synagogue, which is now part of our Auschwitz Jewish Center Foundation's campus, as we call it, was used by this small group of survivors. The synagogue known as Heberlem Dejmisch Neiotsynagogue was one of several that existed in the town before the war.

and is the only one that survived, was not completely destroyed by the Germans. So this was again a synagogue. The number of survivors varied, but at the peak, this was about 180 people. As far as we know, many of, I mean, probably the majority of these people were originally from Oświęcim, but there were also others, right, who just came to the town.

Maciek (29:49.115)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (29:54.087)
for different reasons. And, you know, again, as in other parts of Poland and this part of Europe, they were usually gradually leaving the town and Poland in this case, mostly because there were usually no survivors. Homes were very often taken over by others.

Maciek (30:13.511)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (30:21.671)
who moved in during the war. There was anti -Semitism, there was communism, then there was the creation of the State of Israel, which also created this opportunity for people to go to. So in the case of Poland and then again in the case of Oświęcim, Oświęcim was not again different from other places.

Waitman (30:41.067)
Thank you.

Tomek Kuncewicz (30:46.175)
this attempt was not successful. There were several families, there few Jewish families who decided to stay longer, until the beginning of 1960s. But as a rule, most of the people left. Oświęcim left Poland after spending just a couple of years or until maybe mid 1950s. Most of these survivors,

Maciek (30:54.363)
Okay.

Maciek (31:00.025)
Thank you.

Tomek Kuncewicz (31:14.727)
came back after the war left. There were different reasons again, as I mentioned, which made these people leave. For example, there's the story of one family, they managed to survive, the Schenker family, they were quite prominent and well known in Oświęcim, they were industrialists and the family managed to survive, came back to Oświęcim and lived until...

1950 I believe and they left mostly because their factory which initially right after the war was given back to the family right this was a chemical factory but then when communism sort of became more radical so to speak there what this was taken away this was nationalized by the communists actually the the head of the family Leon Schenker was arrested.

Maciek (32:07.099)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (32:14.399)
There were some, of course, this was sort of probably as far as we know, it was fabricated by the communist security that he was some sort of...

he was breaking the law, this was sort of the claim. And then in the end, I think he was released after about 12 months and then they realized that there is no future for them anymore because the factory was taken away. There's this risk of being the father, the father in the family was arrested. So they decided to leave and finally they settled in Israel.

But there were also other families which stayed a bit longer. There's the story which we have it featured in our exhibit, the story of Elina Shackett, who now lives in Israel, but she was born in Oshienchim after the war, to Jewish parents, and they were one of the last Jewish families to leave Oshienchim in 1961.

and they settled in Israel. She still has very close ties to Oshvendzim. She comes back regularly. Actually, her son Shlomi lives in Krakow. He was a volunteer at our foundation a few years ago. So that's kind of, you know, the beginning of the 1960s is sort of the end of the Jewish presence, right, in Oshvendzim. There's one exception, Szymon Kluger.

who comes back, he was a survivor, and after the war he went to Sweden and he stayed there for some time, but then he came back to Oshvengim beginning of 1960s and he moves back into his family home. This home today is again part of our campus, it's now Cafe Berkson. We renovated this house, the house of the last Jewish resident.

Tomek Kuncewicz (34:24.711)
and we created a very kind of open space. It's a cafe for visitors, for locals. But he is the last Jewish survivor. He comes back to Eświęcim, which in itself is a unique story, because I don't think there are many situations where actually survivors left and then came back to Poland during communism.

We know of survivors who actually came back to Poland after 1989, but during communism that's very exceptional. But he did come back, moved back into his family home and lives in this home until his death in 2000. He's actually buried as the only person to be buried at the Jewish cemetery in Naświęcim. So he's sort of the last Jewish...

resident of Oświęcim and really with his passing this history comes to an end we can say. But of course there is the heritage, the remnants of Jewish presence which when we started our work in Oświęcim there was still a bit more, for example there was the Haberfeld house or the house of the most prominent

Jewish family which ran the liquor factory. There were also a few other buildings along the so -called Jewish street, like Bob of Yeshiva, for example. So some of these buildings unfortunately did not survive until today, but we managed to save the synagogue, we managed to save the building next door, which now houses the Jewish Museum, telling the story of Oshpizin, which is...

Waitman (36:11.019)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (36:18.215)
the Jewish name for Oświęcim and that's how the Jewish Museum is called, it's called Ośpicyń. The house of the last Jewish resident, which now is Scafé Berkson. The Great Synagogue Memorial Park, which we created and reopened, I mean not reopened, but opened three years ago on the side of the Great Synagogue.

There is the Jewish cemetery, which we also take care of, and there's now a project called Bunker of Memory. So we're actually using a German bunker from the time of the war to mount pieces of broken tombstones. And this is a project in progress. There are about 700 tombstones, matzah vod, still at the Jewish cemetery in Oshvinchim. The cemetery itself was destroyed completely.

by the Germans. The tombstones were used as construction material all over the town. After the war, survivors actually started to rebuild the Jewish cemetery and today there are about 700 tombstones back at the cemetery sort of placed randomly with the exception of the one, Matsewa, belonging to Simon Kruger, right, who died in 2000.

So these are the major sites of Jewish heritage that exist in Oświęcim today. Of course, the Jewish Museum also has quite a rich collection, probably the richest collection of artifacts, pictures, documents from one Jewish community, right? Because everything that we have in our collection is from Ośpicin. We've been very consistently collecting.

everything that's available either in the town in Poland or sometimes even abroad to collect this material heritage. Just recently, about a year ago, there was quite an interesting story of two mikwas being found in Oświęcim, one wooden one which probably goes back to the early

Maciek (38:35.003)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (38:41.103)
to the kind of beginnings of the Jewish settlement in Oshvienchim and then a newer one and we actually have the artifacts, the sort of remains of the newer mikvah and we are now working to preserve them and to exhibit them this year. So this collection...

Waitman (38:56.619)
And I wish I should just jump into for those of us that for those of our listeners, amigva is the the ritual bathing sort of institution that if you're if you're a particularly observant orthodox, you would go there, you know, before certain services and at certain intervals. So it's part it's a it's an artifact that all sort of shtetls and and orthodox communities would have at least one of these.

Tomek Kuncewicz (39:06.887)
Mm -hmm.

Maciek (39:22.025)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (39:25.735)
Yes, exactly. This was sort of a must, right, as part of the sort of Jewish religious infrastructure. So synagogues, of course religious schools, but also mikvah definitely was part of it. And this was quite unique actually, because a wooden mikvah was found in Oświęcim. It's now being preserved.

Waitman (39:26.379)
Just wanted to jump in so we can explain that, but.

Tomek Kuncewicz (39:54.311)
This was actually discovered by the town of Oświęcim. We hope to be part of the process to also display it in the near future. But it's quite a complicated project to make sure that this, of course, old wood, several hundred years old, stays intact and it's displayed properly. But...

This is a process that continues. Actually still today, artifacts are being found all the time. All the time we sort of discover people with some roots in Oświęcim all over the world who get in touch with us and then for example send us pictures or documents. Also recently we purchased a collection of about 100

Maciek (40:36.283)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (40:50.553)
historic photographs from the time of the German occupation. Many of them also, you know, actually present the life during the Nazi occupation in Noświęcim. So, yes.

Waitman (41:07.883)
Well, and I should also mention that it, you have, consecrated is the wrong word, right? Cause that's a Christian word, but there is a synagogue that has a Bima and an Ark and Torah scrolls and can be used as a functioning synagogue. I mean, it is the only remaining synagogue, right? A much smaller one, right? Because the great synagogue is destroyed by the Nazis, right? Or, yeah.

Tomek Kuncewicz (41:23.303)
Yes. Yes, yes. Exactly. Yeah, this was this was set on fire by at the beginning of the war and then demolished actually by prisoners of Auschwitz. Of course, they were forced to do it. And today there is a memorial park which we created on the site.

Waitman (41:45.867)
And so if we move then into the present, can you talk a little bit about, perhaps Maciej, about the education programs that you do, I think maybe particularly for non -Jewish Poles, because that seems to be in some ways some of the most valuable work that you do.

Tomek Kuncewicz (41:55.995)
That's it.

Maciek (42:00.071)
Mm -hmm.

Maciek (42:06.377)
Sure, gladly. And thank you for asking about this. So I would say that in our work with the general public, the majority of our visitors to the museum, the synagogue and our programs are non -Jews, right? And when it comes to organized groups, this is mostly Polish and German visitors, right? So on top of...

Polish visitors, I'm sorry, school groups, but also just general visitors. We also got a lot of visitors from German speaking countries, mostly Germany and Austria as part of their visits to the former camps of Austria. They also come to see both our center, the Museum and the Synagogue, and also tour the town. So as Tomek said at the beginning, our mission is like twofold. On one hand, we want to make sure that the history of the local Jewish community in Święcim,

communicated that those people are not forgotten, that they're remembered not only because but also despite of Auschwitz because of this long shadow which makes it really almost impossible to imagine that in a place like Auschwitz there was ever a Jewish community but there was like Tomic said 400 years long history we want to make sure that those people are remembered that's why we have the museum that's why we have the synagogue that's why we organize programs we organize tours in the first place like tours of

the museum, the synagogue and the town and also Jewish traces in the town including sites that Tomek mentioned, so the Jewish cemetery, the side of the great synagogue with the memorial park, then also the market square which is also both a site of Jewish remembrance but also a Holocaust site since this was the Umschlagplatz to use the analogy to the Warsaw ghetto, so this was the square from where people were taken. So those general tours.

different events, but also particular programs that we have and the ongoing programs, regular programs that we have for both for youth and for adults. When you think about adults, we have programs for particular professional groups. So number one is like teachers. We want to work a lot with local Polish teachers. We believe that it's really important aside from...

Maciek (44:16.137)
hosting students at our museum and the synagogue that also prepared teachers, not only about this history, but also the other part of our mission, as Tomago already mentioned, is the anti -discrimination education. Education about those mechanisms, those universal psychological mechanisms which contributed to the Holocaust, but also they're still around us because this is how we're... There are certain mechanisms that rule our behavior and we oftentimes rate people differently.

depending on their group behavior and this, I'm sorry, of their group belonging and this can have very serious consequences as seen in the Holocaust and other genocides. And the idea here is to be aware of those mechanisms and to stop negative behavior as early as possible, you know, meaning early childhood or childhood, child development, schools and so on and so forth. So we have particular programs for this. Our flagship program for the Polish teachers is called Anti -discrimination Education Academy. And this is a program which combines

an educational visit to our museum and the Auschwitz Museum and reflection about those events and processes with preparing teachers to be mindful of those mechanisms very early at school and preparing them to become better, more inclusive and better educators responsible for the inclusive atmosphere in their classrooms. This is like a six -week -long program and we've had, I think, 20 iterations of it by now.

Waitman (45:33.195)
you

Maciek (45:41.833)
We also have programs, wait a minute, you have already mentioned this, our flagship international program is the American Service Academies program, which brings together each year a group of select cadets from the four military academies in the US, so Air Force, Coast Guard, Navy, and Military Academy at West Point. And this is a two -week program, the only one of this kind in the world, actually, where this select group spends first week together in the US.

Waitman (45:43.915)
you

Maciek (46:10.537)
studying the history of the Holocaust and preparing for the trip to Poland at the USAHMM in DC and also then in New York, also meeting with Holocaust survivors. We are still fortunate to have Holocaust survivors in the US who are able to meet our cadets. So this is really unique. And then we traveled to Poland together. We're actually being joined by our Scotland residents, Whiteman and then the quest.

for understanding of the Holocaust Continuous, where we study particular cases of the complicity of the German military on the Holocaust. And what we, under Wettmann's guidance, actually, we have discussions what can be derived from the behavior of the German military and the leadership, especially for the future military leaders of the US Armed Forces. So this is a two -week, long, very intensive course.

which is aiming to prepare future military leaders of the US Armed Forces to become better leaders, more aware of this history and what this history has to tell us.

Waitman (47:18.091)
And so what is the, you mentioned a little bit about, about teachers, right? Polish teachers. What's, what is the sort of curriculum for, for, you know, Polish secondary and elementary education as it relates to the Holocaust? You know, what, what are they taught or they have to be taught if anything? And what are the challenges of, of teaching this particular topic?

Maciek (47:21.801)
Right. Mm -hmm.

Maciek (47:39.145)
Sure, sure. So just to give a tiny bit of a context, some of our listeners might be surprised that for a very long time in post -war Poland, almost nothing was taught about the Holocaust or Jewish history or any history of any minority communities under communism was very...

simplified version of history were to boil it down to one sentence, everybody suffered the same under the Nazism and then the world, Europe was delivered from Nazism or from fascism by Soviet Union. This was the general and there was no space for any particular group suffering or any particular group history almost with minor exceptions. So that means that for a lot of time the future teachers were not, when they were studying history,

they were not taught about the Holocaust at all. So this change only happened in 1989 with the fall of communism, with Poland becoming a democratic state. Holocaust became mandated and until today it actually is part of the Polish education system from primary school on through high school in subjects such as history, Polish and civics, Holocaust is being taught.

It's being taught in the regular courses plus there's also supplements and materials. However, the amount of time that is allotted to this phenomenon depends solely on the teacher and that has obviously consequences. It really depends on an individual teacher whether they want to devote one hour in the history class to it or they want to divide, they want to run a project and this is where it obviously becomes quite...

quite tricky and complex and also it's subject to political pressures. And over the past eight years of the previous government, there was a lot of pressure to focus almost exclusively on the majority, on the suffering of the majority society today, which is Polish non -Jewish and way more time and resources was devoted to this. The history of the Holocaust, when it was being presented, it was presented mostly...

Maciek (49:54.281)
focusing on there were attempts to present the behavior of the Polish majority as helpful, the individual stories of Polish non -Jewish rescuers. So, the rights among nations were presented oftentimes as representative for the general stance of the Polish society, which as we know was...

Waitman (50:16.689)
Thank you.

Maciek (50:19.401)
was not true. It was way more complex and usually, as we know from the history of the Holocaust, rescuers are usually a minority, definitely not a majority. So it became quite hard to teach. In the meantime, there are also several research projects about the efficiency of Holocaust education, independent projects, which showed that students who are less exposed...

Waitman (50:27.531)
you

Maciek (50:45.513)
to teaching of history at Polish schools have more knowledge about the Holocaust. This is quite interesting, right? This is a project which was a research project by the Warsaw University from a couple of years before, which meant that the less history you were exposed to at school, the better outlook of the Holocaust you had. This is interesting. This tells us a little bit about the informal teaching of history, about the historical transmission of history in families, and so on and so forth. So...

Waitman (51:07.633)
you

Maciek (51:13.225)
there were indeed complexities and there are. Jan Garbowski, one of those very well -known scholars of the Holocaust has once said that there's a huge difference in the awareness of the fate of Polish Jews and non -Jews, the difference between Poland or Eastern Europe and Western Europe. In the Western world you know way more about the Holocaust but you know very little.

about the fate of Polish or Eastern European non -Jews who also suffer on a different level, but as we know, there was a qualitative difference between the Nazi regime in Western Europe and Eastern Europe. Stemming from the racial Nazi worldview, the Polish non -Jews were seen as sub -humans slightly, obviously, above the Jews, but still they were subject to huge, to huge terror. This is something that escapes the public awareness in the Western world.

Waitman (51:48.147)
Okay.

Tomek Kuncewicz (51:49.631)
Thank you.

Maciek (52:05.161)
And it also contributes to a sense in Poland, for example, that our history is not being taught at all. We're not interesting, right? They are only interested in the Holocaust. They don't know anything about us. They automatically assume that all Poles were complicit in the Holocaust and so forth and so on and so forth. So this, I would say, this stereotype threat is also one of the factors, while until today Holocaust education is problematic to some teachers.

Waitman (52:06.731)
you

Waitman (52:29.067)
you

Maciek (52:34.793)
I should also say, to be fair, that there's a huge number of grassroots projects. So you have teachers in small towns, sometimes also aided by local religious leaders, who take responsibility for the local Jewish heritage. They clean up the cemeteries, oftentimes abandoned or destroyed. They do local research in their history, like school archives. They get in touch with people like us, so local museums.

Waitman (52:36.811)
you

Maciek (53:02.505)
So this is something that I think really needs to be noticed and appreciated. And there's also several grassroots museums, Holocaust museums, which are set up in Poland on this trend. So even though there are definitely difficulties and they have to do with a number of different factors, politics is just one of them. But there's also, I think, really quite unique achievements. I think Poland has gone really, really far, not only top down in the sense that there's a lot of interesting and good research.

Waitman (53:29.259)
you

Maciek (53:31.753)
about the Holocaust, right? But there's also this grassroots movement from the bottom up where a lot of young people are non -Jews, right, are becoming interested in this history. Also when you look at the Jewish studies departments at universities in Wrocław or Kraków or Warsaw, the majority of students, which some of our listeners again might be surprised with, the majority of students are non -Jews by the loss of statistics, the fact that the

Jewish community of Poland is so small, but also by the virtue of this grassroots interest in this history.

Tomek Kuncewicz (54:01.159)
you

Waitman (54:04.311)
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the interesting things about this is, as you're beginning to point out, this perhaps a disconnect between government policy, at least the former government's policy, and maybe what's happening at the local level. And you raise a number of complications that I think are important. One is always that we have this issue, oftentimes, even Holocaust scholars sometimes do this, where we talk about Jews and Poles.

And of course, what we really should say to be more accurate is non -Jewish polls and Jewish polls, right? Because it's in some ways falling into the Nazi trap or the overall anti -Semitic trap of this idea that Jews can't be Germans, Americans, French people or whatever. And so there's that interesting piece as well. And then of course you raise the issue that I think, at least from my experience with you guys as well as in general is that...

Tomek Kuncewicz (54:39.143)
Okay.

Maciek (54:43.753)
you

Waitman (55:00.933)
The challenge, particularly if I'm channeling the government, I guess a little bit, with Holocaust, particularly Jewish Holocaust remembrance in Poland, is that for a lot of people, I think on the outside, they become less willing to recognize, as you point out, the very real suffering of non -Jewish Poles. If officialdom in Poland isn't willing to recognize that it did.

Maciek (55:25.705)
you

Waitman (55:30.219)
it did that the post population did did bad things and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and

Tomek Kuncewicz (55:34.311)
Hmm.

Waitman (55:59.613)
wasn't hospitable and made things more difficult for Jews during the Holocaust. And in some ways, we could argue took advantage at times of the situation. But of course, as you point out, there are many Poles who didn't make that choice. But can you talk about the government's position? Because I think it's really interesting and it's something that I'm not as familiar with. Why did the last government

make this this choice because if I'm if I'm reading you correctly this is kind of a it was kind of a change from the previous official official government position which which which at least was sort of like we're not going to get involved in this it will allow anyone to teach the way that they want to or or memorialize what what happened here?

Tomek Kuncewicz (56:36.519)
Thank you.

Tomek Kuncewicz (56:47.475)
I mean, you know, starting in 1989 there was an attempt, right, to, I guess, to create more inclusive rhetoric, right, more inclusive education. Poland, you know, which was home of many nations, Poland which was maybe not nations, but ethnic groups, right, and one of them was of course Jewish and the Jewish community was

in the Holocaust and also facing anti -Semitism as also like talking about what happened during Holocaust you have to look at what happened before the war, right? And the very negative legacy of the Polish right when you know which really exploited and instigated and exploited anti -Semitism as a political tool. So this of course was crucial later.

Maciek (57:39.401)
Okay.

Tomek Kuncewicz (57:45.219)
had made helping Jews much more difficult in occupied Poland because of the rhetoric of the Polish right, of the Polish church before the war. So again, if you look at the situation in Poland after 1989, the political parties which kind of feel close to the right of the past,

I mean, they were not ready to face anti -Semitism and they were actually claiming that it was, there was too much about it, that actually the politics of the, you know, pre the previous government was too apologetic, that there was too much about, you know, there was too much negativity about Polish Jewish relations. We should focus on the rescue. We should...

focus on the positive picture and the 1 ,000 years of Jewish presence in Poland and positive examples. And of course, very often this also meant more nationalist kind of history, which very often did not include Jews as part of Poles. And that's, I think, the

biggest challenge to also for us, right, to make sure that Jews are part of Poland, Jews are part of Oświęcim, that this is our history, right? So like, when we talk about, let's say, the Jewish cemetery in Oświęcim, it's not their cemetery, it's our cemetery, the same way it's, you know, the Catholic cemetery is our cemetery, right? So this understanding, to sort of to change this political approach, which was

Waitman (59:30.827)
Okay.

Maciek (59:41.033)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (59:43.047)
really exploited by the right before the war, to really exploit these anti -Jewish sentiment, anti -Semitism for the political gain by dividing Poland into Jews and non -Jews. So Poles and Jews, this was a very strong political tool before the war, which sort of

The legacy of it continues until today. And also the legacy of it had horrible consequences during the Holocaust. Even though, again, as Maciej mentioned, when we studied genocides, we know that psychology works in a very defined way in the sense that you never have a lot of rescuers. In these kind of circumstances, when we allow the genocidal politics,

to come to power, it's kind of too late already, right? Because most people will be afraid. But here we're also talking about situations when people didn't really, in many cases, feel that the Jews are part of us. And I think that's, and I think this is, and this, and the blame for it, for it goes to the Polish right and the Polish church.

Waitman (01:01:02.883)
And so with the past government, you know, are they are they playing into modern politics in terms of how they were how they refer to the historically restored to the Holocaust? How does that how does that become because it's something that we see.

You know in the modern context right I mean with with the war in in Gaza with trans people group most recently with all kinds things the Holocaust is is often a football that sort of kicked around by both by everybody You know, how was it you how was it used by? The last government and then and then I guess I know that we've only had the new government for a short period of time But are there already can you see changes or can you predict changes based on the new government?

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:01:29.675)
Mm -hmm.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:01:37.965)
Mm -hmm.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:01:54.631)
Well, I think the new government will kind of go back to the more kind of inclusive approach, right, to history. And I don't think they will kind of exploit, let's say, any nationalist or anti -Jewish sentiment in this sense, right? In the case of the previous government, they really played with this idea, right, that...

Yes, Poles were victims, Poles were heroes. And if you talk about, if you say anything negative, then you are pretty much a traitor, right? Because that's how the world wants to see us as bad guys. And we need to change it, even though it's not true. It's usually much more nuanced. And for example, this law, which they tried to introduce, this Holocaust bill, which...

Waitman (01:02:48.547)
And which one was this specifically just for our listeners in?

Maciek (01:02:51.397)
you

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:02:54.439)
they tried to introduce as we know, really created a lot of harm. There was a bill presented and actually in the end sort of modified that you cannot talk about Polish sort of complicity in the Holocaust, right? That this is forbidden by law pretty much, right? And...

Maciek (01:03:24.201)
And that's in 2018, right? End of 2018.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:03:26.087)
Right, right. And this was under the previous government, this kind of right -wing nationalist government. So this in the end was modified. There was a sort of a compromise reached with the Israeli government. But I mean, the initial idea was that you cannot really talk about sort of any bad behavior of Poles during the Holocaust. So this, of course, in a way, created a situation that there was more...

sort of talk about this negative behavior, then they really, you know, they wanted to sort of silence it, right, but they actually, the impact was opposite. And this just shows like, you know, that they really try to sort of use this sentiment of, you know, okay, well, they only talk about, you know, perpetrators in Poland or something, right, this is what the world wants to know.

Waitman (01:04:16.235)
And of course, it merits mentioning for our listeners in.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:04:25.031)
But we need to really emphasize the heroes, the Polish suffering and so on. So, you know, they did it in a very sort of, I would say, in a primitive way. So it backfired.

Waitman (01:04:42.571)
in the UK or in the United States and other places that, you before we start throwing rocks at the Polish government, you know, for having these these sort of right wing views, you know, we have the same issue where how dare you talk about slavery or, you know, the participation of people in the slave trade or, you know, our treatment of Native Americans or anyone of a number of topics in our histories that are negative and don't reflect well on our nation and.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:04:57.895)
Mm -hmm.

Waitman (01:05:11.039)
you know, I was, I was nodding when Machik or when Tomek was talking because, you know, there's the same idea of like, you know, if you bring up the fact that, well, you know, lots of our institutions were supported or started by slavery, you're a traitor and you're an American and you're sort of a bad person, right? And, you know, and, and in the, a lot of this comes down to, as Tomek was pointing out, some of these sort of

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:05:24.903)
Thank you.

Waitman (01:05:36.147)
really simplistic and elementary kinds of arguments. And one of the ones that I always noticed with the previous government was this very strident insistence on referring to Poland between 1939 and 1945 as Nazi German occupied Poland. And if you said that

the Jews of the Netherlands were sent to the extermination centers in Poland, the government officialdom would lose its mind and would say, how dare you, this is German occupied Poland, Poland did not exist. Which again speaks to this really, this straw man argument that, I've never met a single person, even on uneducated Twitter who thinks that the Poles,

you know, built these extermination centers, you know, or that really there was anything that the Poles had to do with these, right? So if you say the, even if you said, you know, the Polish camps differ from the German camps in this way, that way, whatever, you know, or the Polish ghettos or German ghettos, you know, no one thinks that these are sort of created by Poles. But the government, you know, just, they would spend so much time sort of swatting those flies in very, in ways that were sort of

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:06:45.543)
Uh -huh.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:06:50.679)
Mm -hmm.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:06:57.767)
Uh -huh.

Waitman (01:07:01.419)
And sometimes, you know, certain official museums would, would, would do this as well in ways that were not, I thought not helpful because you're sort of, you're coming off as, as sort of policing something that's, that's a non -issue. And as you point out, this, this sort of Streisand effect of like, don't talk about, don't talk about polls and what they did becomes talk about polls and what they did, you know, which, which I.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:07:06.135)
Mm -hmm.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:07:17.263)
Mm -hmm.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:07:27.239)
Yeah, but the problem is here that, of course, this was just politics, right? I mean, they didn't care about the outside. They cared about the inside because their electorate has this complex about it, right? So this is just for interior politics. And it's useful and it functioned and it was exploited and it...

Maciek (01:07:30.953)
Okay.

Waitman (01:07:39.307)
Mm, yeah.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:07:55.175)
and it also strengthened their support here, unfortunately. The claim was that they wanted to defend Poland from these false accusations, but in fact they reinforced these accusations and this was all done for the sake of their electorate.

Waitman (01:08:21.899)
And I think, you know, one of the things that, that I also, I think is important to bring up before we sort of move towards the end is something that, you know, in conversations that I've had with you and other people, you know, that it's also important to recognize that sometimes other organizations, you know, sometimes Israeli groups that visit Poland, you know, also contribute to a negative representation of Poland based on the ways in which they run their, run their trips.

in the sense of, you know, you have a group that comes over, I think, you know, maybe Birthright or March the Living, which do really great things, you know, in the sense of like visiting, but also sometimes with the fact of like having armed guards and sort of saying you can never leave the hotel because polls are out to get you is also going sort of in the other direction and is preventing dialogue, right? Because one of the things that...

And maybe you can talk a little bit about this. You know, one of the challenges is in a place like Poland that has a very, very important Jewish history, but very few actual Jews, it becomes difficult to sort of in a way that in the United States, if you were if you were trying, if you were interested in doing this in a responsible way, you could put white people in a room with black people very, very easily and sort of have that dialogue about.

Maciek (01:09:40.801)
It is, you know, it really, like you said, it really depends on the on goal of your of your program and the experience how it's being designed. And like you said, you know, people come with preconceived notions to all kinds of places. I remember from my own experience, you know, being a fresh

Waitman (01:09:46.891)
or prejudice. And it's difficult to do in Poland, right?

Maciek (01:10:07.305)
First year history student, I went to visit my girlfriend in Nuremberg, Germany. This was my first trip to Germany. Being a history student, I kind of was aware of the history of Nuremberg. But then whenever I saw elderly people in the streets of Nuremberg, I was like, this is so uncomfortable. I'm sure you did something wrong. Maybe you bumped into my grandfather and you limed him up against the wall, which is something that happened to my grandfather a couple of times. So...

without the opportunity to engage in a dialogue and really discuss what's in your head and also get to know the local community, the local population, the individuals without being aware of those mechanisms of generalization, it's really hard. And this is also the case of the of a Svijencim in Poland where people come and they come oftentimes with those preconceived notions, with the family stories.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:11:03.655)
and

Maciek (01:11:04.393)
And it takes, it's a huge effort actually on both sides to be able to break away from those stereotypes, but also for the local population to be aware that we live in a place which is burdened by history. Well, you have to be aware of this and you need to be also ready to open up. One of the things that we're doing at the center is we're organizing dialogue meetings between young American Jews, teens coming from different Jewish schools in the...

the US in different programs and also the local local teens from from Oshienjin. This is really rare right like I said for most of visitors to Auschwitz they come to Auschwitz they come to Auschwitz exclusively right they don't come to see the town this is just the reality it's not their fault it's also how the logistics of travel business as as bad as it sounds is organized those are usually one -day trips from the nearby major city of Krakow so people just in order to see Auschwitz

international and also Polish visitors, they don't need to go for the town of Oświęcim. They just hop on the bus in the city of Kraków. The bus takes them directly to Auschwitz museum. They take the tour. They go back. That's it. And it has a lot of it has a lot of consequences for both the visitors and their image of Oświęcim Poland, but also for the locals here in our town, which feel like, hey, you know what? They don't they don't care about us. Like, it's not interesting to them that also.

non -Jewish Poles were killed at Auschwitz. They were the first ones to be deported actually because as Auschwitz was being expanded, they needed to give up their homes and sometimes at random they were included as first prisoners. Also there were also Jews here who were taken away. They don't care that much, they only come for Auschwitz. So that actually does create complexities and it takes an effort again on both sides to break away from it and this is also one of the things that we're doing. And it actually bears

amazing fruit and we've heard feedback both from the Jewish teens from the US and also the local high school that we work with here in the Svendim that it really changes a lot. It's just so comforting that you can bring people together from different worlds with different notions and they're able to find a common language and once the common ground is established they can also discuss why it's so difficult for them.

Waitman (01:13:18.475)
you

Maciek (01:13:28.553)
Right, it's something important that's happening under a standard.

Waitman (01:13:33.195)
one and this is a it's it's really great because this is a positive very positive thing you know and it's one of the things that that i i you know it's a different context but when i was in when i went to the military you know i was thrown together with people that i hadn't had you know experience with you know different ethnic groups different socioeconomic groups you know and you're actually right you know you it there's something about we roots we've been see this with the cadets sometimes you know is that you know making people be together

in a constructive way can yield some really important... Because eventually you have to view people as individuals and sort of begin to see their perspective. It's not anonymous account on Twitter screaming at somebody else because it's an actual person sitting next to you. And we could do a whole other podcast on Auschwitz, the camp and the weird sort of...

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:14:29.529)
you

Waitman (01:14:32.235)
commercial element to it. And it, you know, I'm, you know, I've, I've been involved with you guys, right, since I guess what, 2008 or whatever, 2007, eight. Um, and so even in that period of time, you know, I've been to Auschwitz the camp many, many times, both in the context of working with you guys, but also in other student groups and visits and that kind of thing. And I've noticed a massive change in the way the museum runs.

It's visits, particularly in Auschwitz one Birkenau is sort of, you can do your own thing there and you can walk around. Um, but the way that, you know, that you're sort of herded through, um, you know, when, when I was, you know, when we went there in 2007, eight, you know, you could, you could show up and spend as much time as you wanted and go wherever you wanted. And, and the last time I was there with, with some friends, you know, you had to book a time.

And you had to go on a tour and the tour took you to various places. It's like checking the block, you know, and then it, you know, we're done and you have to leave. Um, you know, which is, which is again, the Oswich museum has a complex sort of job, right? Because it gets, um, it's the most visited place in Poland and it gets millions of visitors. And so there were logistical and just practical reasons behind this, but then there's also these weird, these weird trips from Krakow where it's like, we'll go to the salt mines.

and Auschwitz in a day. And of course, when I went there with you, and again, this is as a graduate student, so it's different, but you know, we spent a day, a complete day in Auschwitz one and a complete day in Auschwitz two, you know, let alone trying to do the whole thing in half a day, you know, and it does create that sort of check the block where it would be nice if the buses stopped at

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:16:00.555)
Mm -hmm.

Waitman (01:16:28.745)
the Auschwitz Jewish Center as well, you know, to sort of, to give you some, not to sort of downplay what's happening in the camp, but, you know, to give some more context, I suppose. But, you know, we can't have everything that we would like as historians.

But before I let you go and thank you so much for coming on and again, I highly recommend many things, both with which is to check out their webpage. And if you do go to the camp of Auschwitz, please go to the Auschwitz True Center as well. Not only can you get a great cup of coffee in the cafe, which is really nice, but you know, it gives context, right, to what's happening. And in some ways,

the what happened to the Jews of Ascension is unique. And in some ways, it's quite similar to what happened to Jews in small towns all across Poland. And so if you go to the Jewish center, and because it's literally right there, you have the opportunity to get a perspective on the Holocaust that is broader than just the sort of institutionalized mass killing. Right. Well, before I let you go, we we we always ask of our of our

guests to give us suggestions for one book on the Holocaust that you found particularly interesting, engaging, useful. Now, it's like I always say, it's like asking someone what their favorite band is. You know, it can change. There's no right or wrong answer. But at this moment in time, in, you know, 2024, what would you recommend?

Maciek (01:18:12.947)
I will not be super original. I'm going to resort to a classic Christopher Browning, one -on -one police battalion. So a book from, I think late 1990s, if I remember correctly, Whitman would know better, right? But a book which talks about the progressive radicalization of a particular police unit.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:18:16.347)
Hmm

Waitman (01:18:27.499)
Ordinary man, yeah.

Maciek (01:18:37.577)
from Hamburg deployed in the parts of Russia occupied by Nazi Germany and engaging step by step in shooting innocent Jewish civilians. It talks about the progressive radicalization, it talks about the learning by doing, it talks about how very regular policemen, oftentimes of left -leaning background, suddenly, gradually, but then also suddenly become mass killers. It's a...

It's a book of permanent importance which gave birth or became a parent of a lot of important research. Other books which I've read, including, for example, German sociologist Harald Wälter and his book, Perpetrators, Taters or Tata in German. So I'm particularly interested in the history of perpetratorship and how people become mass murderers. It also inspired

Waitman (01:19:13.405)
you

Maciek (01:19:36.265)
our host here, Waitman, to begin or continue his research about the complicity of the regular army, so Wehrmacht in Belarus, so all kinds of very important things. I would say amazing, but not sure if it's the right word, but things of amazing importance that I think provide at least a light, shed some light onto this universal human capacity of...

of becoming evil. That's what's important to me, I would say. Yeah, thank you.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:20:10.183)
In my case, I mean, my, my, I guess what comes to my mind right now and like my favorite books about this subject, I'm sort of more like personal, like memoirs, right? And there are two that come to my mind right now. One is, the, the, Calel Perehotnik's, Am I a Murderer? And the other one is, Agata Tuszyńska's, Family History of Fear.

These are very personal accounts of what happened and also kind of post -holocaust trauma related to these horrible events.

Waitman (01:20:52.555)
Well, thank you both for our listeners. If you are, again, as I always say, enjoying is probably the wrong word, but if you are finding this podcast interesting, please, please do subscribe. Give us a rating on the places that will give you the opportunity to give us ratings and comments. And, you know, share with a friend. If you think there's somebody who might be interested in what we're talking about. Thank you so much, Maciek and Tomek for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:21:20.871)
Thank you, thank you so much, thank you.

Maciek (01:21:21.673)
Absolutely. Thank you. This was a great discussion. Thank you for all the thought -provoking questions. Thank you, Waichman.

Tomek Kuncewicz (01:21:28.455)
Thank you. Bye bye.