Ep. 19- The Jasenovac Camp with Stipe Odak

Somewhere between 70,000 and 100,000 Jews, Roma, and ethnic Serbs were murdered in the Jasenovac concentration camp in what is now Croatian.  This camp was run by Croatians without Nazi involvement.  Yet few outside of the Balkans have heard of it.

In this week’s episode, I talk with Stipe Odak about the incredibly complex history of the camp as well as the Holocaust in region.  We also delve into the difficult memory politics of the camp and its use during the 1990s Balkan genocides.

Stipe Odak is a post-doctoral researcher at the Institute of Political Science at the Université Catholique de Louvain (Belgium) and, as of September 2024, an assistant professor in the field of applied ethics at the same university. He received his PhD in Political and Social Sciences from UC Louvain (Belgium) and a doctorate in Theology from KU Leuven (Belgium).

Odak, Stipe and Andriana Kuznar, Danijeila Lucic, eds. Jasenovac Concentration Camp: An Unfinished Past (2023)

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You can find a complete reading list with books by our guests and also their suggestions here.

Transcript

Stipe (00:00.815)
Hello everybody. Welcome to the Holocaust History Podcast. I'm your host, Waibman Bourne. And one of the things that I've said from the beginning on this podcast that I wanted to do was expose a general audience to histories of the Holocaust that they may not have been aware of. And for lots of reasons that we're going to cover today, I think the Senevac camp in what is now Croatia is a really, really good example of this. It's a very important place.

Waitman (00:00.841)
Hello everybody. Welcome to the Holocaust History Podcast. I'm your host, Waipman Born. And one of the things that I've said from the beginning on this podcast that I wanted to do was expose a general audience to histories of the Holocaust that they may not have been aware of. And for lots of reasons that we're going to cover today, I think the Senevac camp in what is now Croatia is a really, really good example of this. It's a very important place.

Stipe (00:29.423)
It's a different place. But it's something that a lot of people, particularly outside of that region, don't really know anything about. So I have an excellent researcher and scholar on this topic, Sjepa Odak, on the podcast today to talk about it. So welcome, Sjepa. Thank you for having me. It's wonderful to be here. Yeah, thanks for coming. I'm really excited for this conversation because I know I'm going to learn a lot as well. But before we get started, can you tell us...

Waitman (00:29.481)
It's a different place, but it's something that a lot of people, particularly outside of that region, don't really know anything about. So I have an excellent researcher and scholar on this topic, Shtipa Odak, on the podcast today to talk about it. So welcome, Shtipa.

Waitman (00:51.913)
Yeah, thanks for coming. I mean, I'm really excited for this conversation because I know I'm going to learn a lot as well. But before we get started, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you came to this particular project?

Stipe (00:59.502)
a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you came to this particular project. Thank you. My academic background, it's a bit unusual, I would say. So initially I studied sociology and comparative literature in Zagreb and then as well theology and religious studies, the same university. Towards the end of master studies, I, with my friend, Adriana, who was co -editor of this book.

was invited to Jesenovac memorial site by the director at the time to do a research on the visitors. And the situation was quite unusual. So this site was now rebuilt as a memorial site with the view of also being a place of reconciliation and inter -ethnic dialogue. However, they noticed that many new visitors, especially young, were coming there, wanted to see a more horrific

representation of crimes, because they had a sense that this is not authentic representation of history. So that's how we came in touch with the very topic of Jesenowitz and later continued to work on the similar topics, especially memory of Jesenowitz and representation of the crimes. I then continued to pursue a PhD in Belgium.

which I did, and I'm currently working at the Institute for Political Science as a postdoctoral researcher at the Université Catholique de Levin in Belgium. And as of September, I'm taking the position of professor of ethics at the same university. Well, congratulations. That's amazing. I should also point out that if you didn't catch that, Stiebha has two PhDs.

Waitman (02:41.193)
Whoa, congratulations. That's amazing. I should also point out that if you die, if you didn't catch that, Steba has two PhDs, just to, just to make sure everybody understands that that's the awesome that is. yeah. I can't imagine doing another one after doing the first one. so yeah, that's, I mean, that's a fantastic introduction as well to the topic. and I think we could probably talk forever just about that project of looking at way the public.

Stipe (02:49.709)
Just to make sure everybody understands how awesome that is. I can't imagine doing another one after doing the first one. So yeah, that's a fantastic introduction as well to the topic. I think we could probably talk forever just about that project of looking at the public views, a camp, a site of a camp, and what they expect to see.

Waitman (03:11.241)
the public views a camp, a site of a camp and what they expect to see, you know, what kinds of things they want to see out of that. And hopefully we'll talk about that maybe as we move forward. But for our audience, can you give us a little bit of background into the area of the world that is now Croatia, that at time was Yugoslavia during the second world war and sort of then move us into

Stipe (03:18.701)
You know, what kind of things they want to see out of that. And hopefully we'll talk about that maybe as we move forward. But for our audience, can you give us a little bit of background into the area of the world that is now Croatia, that at time was Yugoslavia during the Second World War and sort of then move us in towards the establishment of the Sinovac and who and what was doing that and why? Sure. And

Waitman (03:41.161)
towards the establishment of Yasenovac and who and what was doing that and why.

Stipe (03:47.693)
That's rather important because the history itself is very complex. No matter where you start in the history of Balkans, it gets very complicated very quickly. But perhaps, perhaps we can start with the First World War and so the aftermath. Before that, I'm pretty sure the listeners at least know the general contours of Europe. So most of this territory was speaking about Balkans.

belonged was under the Ottoman Empire and then one part, especially Croatia, Slovenian territory, were under different empires, Austro -Hungarian Empire, which then occupied and annexed Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1908. And then, of course, the First World War started in Sarajevo with the assassination of Crown Prince. And now the things are getting...

very quickly, changing very quickly and getting complex also very quickly. So at the end of the First World War, as we all know, the Austro -Hungarian Empire ceased to exist. Before this, already, there were intellectual movements among intelligentsia, crwots, Serbs and Slovenes as well, which were already proposing the idea of Yugoslav state.

Yugoslav state, so it would be exact translation, South Slavs, which means that South Slavs, those people that speak similar languages within the region of the Balkans, should unite inside one state. So not to be under any form of foreign rule or empire. So especially this idea was concentrated.

a round of movement which is called Yugoslav Committee established in 1915 already which was pushing this idea forward. The idea will eventually come to fruition so already at the end of the First World War when the first state community was established which was initially called the Kingdom of Croats, Serbs and Slovenes or Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

Stipe (06:11.211)
which will later change name into the kingdom of Yugoslavia. So for listeners, perhaps it's already important to underline that there are two Yugoslavias. So second Yugoslavia, the communist Yugoslavia is probably well known, but the one which is less known is this first Yugoslavia, right? Which was established in 1918 and which was

preceded in name as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, but at the top, the head of the state was the Serbian King of the Kara Georgievici dynasty. So what happened here is that the independent Kingdom of Serbia, then later joined by the Montenegro and then by the lands that used to belong to Austro -Hungarian Empire, joined together into a common unity.

So, mind you, initially the Yugoslav idea was mostly a federal idea, that each of these states should have some form of autonomy within the same state union. However, very soon the king started centralizing efforts to make the kingdom more centrally unified. This created very quickly the opposition, especially among

Croatian politicians. So now very early in the life of the kingdom, we have already a polarization between Croatian parties and Serbian parties, right? This will escalate in 1928 with the assassination of five Croatian politicians inside the parliament in Belgrade, right? Which created a deep political crisis.

And then which led to another decision, which will make things even more complicated by the king to dissolve the parliament and establish the dictatorship. So now we speak already of 29, January 29, when the king, Yugoslav king, Alexander, establishes personal dictatorship within the kingdom of Yugoslavia. This one,

Stipe (08:38.154)
a Croatian politician, which will go to immigration and will become very important later. So his name is Ante Pavelic. He later will also become the head of the state of the so -called independent state of Croatia. But let's go step by step. So now already in 29 January, we already have a centralized kingdom.

with personal dictatorship of the king, which made things, made the crisis even more difficult. So a few years later, they were also targeted assassination of Croatian politicians in Zagreb, which created uproar even internationally. So among people such as Albert Einstein, for instance, and Coalition for the Defense of Human Rights. And then,

Meanwhile, I mentioned that some politicians went into exile, immigration. Already before, there were other groups, so in Austria, Hungary, and Italy, which were against the very idea of unity with Serbia. So now these communities abroad are plotting against the state itself, right?

The central among this organization will become very important later and it's known as Ustase. So this organization was established as a revolutionary organization, the desire to establish a Croatian state and topple the Serbian monarchy. They also joined with other

revolutionary organizations which use terrorist tactics. Among them, Macedonian organization, Imran, with similar objectives, establishing Macedonian state and against the monarchy. So they became successful in their terrorist tactics in 34 when the king was assassinated during the visit to France in Marseille.

Stipe (11:01.021)
So now this of course made things even more complicated and meanwhile so we have a crisis within the kingdom. Abroad there are these revolutionary organizations becoming organized around the idea of independent creation state. This political crisis and of course the Nazi Germany is expanding towards the east preparing

course, the invasion of the Soviet Union. So slowly, it's creating puppet regime around the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. And the pressure is becoming stronger and stronger. So in 41, Yugoslavia, under such pressure, signs a treaty with the three -part pact. So it enters into an alliance with the Axis forces, which

created again another uproar among the population and led to coup d 'etat two days later, which then as a counter reaction led to German occupation of the kingdom in April, 6th of April, 41. So under occupation, German forces established one regime in Serbia under Nedic government.

and another regime, now which will be called the independent state of Croatia, that comprise the territories of Republic of Croatia minus Istria Dalmatia, some islands, but plus territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and some territories of contemporary Serbia and Slovenia. So now what we have here, again,

is a statelet, a puppet state called independent state of Croatia. However, as one famous Croatian historian, Slavko Golstein underlined, it was neither independent because obviously it was directly dependent on Italy and Germany. It wasn't also entirely Croatian. It was the dictatorship and they never enjoyed strong support by the population, especially when they're

Stipe (13:27.144)
tactics of terror became visible. So now when they established the government, those revolutionary organizations that used to exist in emigration, now became the central power within the state. So Ustase, so initially revolutionary organization, now become the state power. So now just to

clarify and then perhaps we can continue conversation in different directions. Now, as of 41, we have a dictatorship with Ante Pavlic as the head of the state, Ustasa with their military wing now having basically the control of the state. Aside from them, there's also a state army which was then recruited from former

officers from Yugoslav army or even before Austro -Hungarian officers as the state army which coexisted in parallel with Ustasa military wing. So it's not complete analogy but perhaps people can have a better idea if we compare them with Wehrmacht and SS divisions in a similar way. And now strangely,

the head of the state again, this is really a curiosity, officially was a king. So why a king and how a king, where did the king come from? And it's really not well known. But in medieval time, Croatia was a kingdom and that was a pillar of memory and collective memory of Croatians. So when they established power, Ante Pavelic and Ustase,

went to Emmanuel III, to Italian king, and asked to pick somebody from the Savoy family as the king of this newly established independent state of Croatia. And they did. So the king picked the name Tomislav II and was crowned as Croatian king, although he never entered Croatia and basically had no political...

Stipe (15:50.887)
power and influence in the land. So this is all perhaps a roller coaster of political events. But here we are in 1941 at the beginning with a monarchy which is effectively dictatorship under the rule of Ante Pavelic and Ustasa Ruzhi. Well, I have to say that's an amazing, that took like 10 minutes and you covered.

Waitman (16:12.201)
Well, and I have to say, that's an amazing, that took like 10 minutes and you covered an exceptional amount of ground in an incredibly clear way. Gosh, you know, that's amazing. I feel like I've already learned a ton already about just the details there. So maybe now, you brought us up to the point where we have the NDH, which is the abbreviation for the independent state of Croatia, right?

Stipe (16:19.11)
An exceptional amount of ground in an incredibly clear way. Gosh, you know, that's that's amazing. I feel like I've already learned a ton already about just the details there. So maybe now you brought us up to the point where we have the NDH, which is the abbreviation for the independent state of Croatia. Right. So we have that it's 1941. They are in some ways a client state of the Nazis.

Waitman (16:41.193)
So we have that, it's 1941, they are in some ways a client state of the Nazis. Maybe you could talk a little bit about what the Eusticia, what Pavlič's sort of intentions are with regards to minority populations, because one of the things that I think is important for everybody to understand when it comes to Croatia is that they have sort of genocidal.

Stipe (16:47.398)
Maybe you could talk a little bit about what the Eusticia, what Pavlič's sort of intentions are with regards to minority populations, because one of the things that I think is important for everybody to understand when it comes to Croatia is that they have sort of genocidal objectives, not just with the Jews, but also with Serbs. And then there's also a religious component that I think is,

Waitman (17:08.969)
objectives, not just with the Jews, but also with Serbs. And then there's also a religious component that I think is, in many ways, different than Nazis in terms of how it's sort of instrumentalized. Right. And I think this probably then does feed into what happens at Jasenovac and what the point of Jasenovac is. So maybe if that's sort of a good jumping off point.

Stipe (17:17.477)
many ways different than Nazis in terms of how it's sort of instrumentalized, right? And I think this probably then does feed into what happens at Jasenovac and what the point of Jasenovac is. So maybe if that's sort of a good jumping off point. Correct. So initially, as I stated, Zostas' organization was strongly against the Serbian monarchy.

which was the idea was that there should be a Croatian independent state and that the arch nemesis is the Serbian monarchy, which then will of course be applied broader during the war to larger community of Serbs themselves. And there was already some elements of these anti -Serb sentiments which preceded even the establishment of the Ustasa organizations abroad.

But this was the basis, so the establishment of Croatia against the perceived enemies among which the primary enemy were the Serbs, political community of Serbs. Then this will slowly evolve. So already towards the late 30s, when Ante Pavlić was establishing stronger links with Hitler, especially, we already see the growth.

of antisemitism, which initially was not so strongly underlying or present within the theology of the movement. And then it slowly expands and comprise also of other groups, such as Freemasons, for instance, who are also perceived as enemies of this creation state. So now let's go to 41, when the state was established. So very soon,

they're introducing the racial laws, which were then imported basically from the Nazi Germany and which targeted two particular racial groups. So those were already non -Aryans, Jews and Roma population. They were perceived differently, this important state. So the Jews were perceived as non -Aryans, but also as somebody...

Stipe (19:40.933)
who's engaged in, well, banking sector, controlling the finances. So an obstacle to Croatian state. Roma, on the other hand, were perceived as somebody who was throughout the history stealing cattle, destroying settlements of Croatian peasants, taking away children. So basically as some internal, under quotation mark, pest, which needs to be eliminated.

So now we had these racial laws which targets racial groups. Serbs did not belong to those two groups. They were not perceived evidently in Irish, Jewish, nor Roma. They were targeted as political enemies, right? It's important to state that Serbian population was almost 30 or even more, a little bit more than 30 % of the whole population on these territories.

So they were aware that they cannot exterminate the whole population of Serbs. But very soon they introduced another legislation which then targeted not only racial groups, but all the enemies of the state. And the punishment for impeding the establishment of Croatian state or plotting against the state, even in attempt, was capital punishment.

So then Serbs were targeted basically as these perceived enemies over the centuries, which are still there, a main obstacle to normal functioning of the state. Now, another thing that needs to be emphasized is that we already have militias and counter -revolutionary movements within the state.

So now let's add that element and make this whole story even more complicated. So I said already that the Serbian Morarchy was deposed when the Germany occupied Yugoslavia in April 41. So now within Serbia, we have another basically fascist nationalist but pro -royalist movement, which are called Chetniks.

Stipe (22:07.78)
Aside from them, another great and eventually victorious movements were Yugoslav Partisans, who were a communist movement who were against both. They were against Chetniks, so against the royalists, but of course they were also against the dictatorship regime within the so -called independent state of Croatia. So these will be three biggest fractions fighting within

the territory of the independent state of Croatia. So now communist partisans were also systematically targeted as political enemies and they will also be sent whenever caught or imprisoned to concentration camps. So now I already mentioned the name concentration camps. So let's clarify then what happened.

So again, concentration camps, among which Jasenovac was the biggest one and certainly the most important one, were established already very early, smaller camps across the country. Some camps in these territories were controlled by Italian forces. Some were controlled by German forces, so especially Saimiste was the biggest one in Serbia.

So occupied territory of Serbia. Now, Jasenovac established in 42 was not controlled by Germans. It was under the local control of the local regime of independent state of Croatia, right? So Jasenovac over time became a scenic dog, basically a name.

which symbolized all the terrors within the independent state of Croatia. And that was for a good reason. So the concentration camp itself, as I said, was established in 42, initially as two smaller camps, but it grew into a bigger complex of five sites, which were then all unified under the same control.

Stipe (24:31.874)
So now who controlled them? So we had a state security department, which was police controlling initially all the sites. And then later there was a state intelligence service, so similar to Gestapo, but within the independent state of Croatia, which had a special department for the concentration sites within the country.

And at the head of this apartment was notorious Max Blue Bridge. So now, Jasenovac starts as a smaller site, quickly grows into a biggest complex of concentration sites within the independent state of Croatia. And now I'll stop here after clarifying the very nature of the camp. So.

It had different functions. It was at the base labor camp where people were exploited. It was also a place where they kept the prisoners of war. So as I mentioned, communists, for instance. It was also penitentiary where some people imprisoned for other crimes, condemned at the court were sent, right? It was a transit camp.

where some people were staying in Jasenovac temporarily and then were sent to a labor, forced labor to the Reich. But the worst and the main purpose of Jasenovac was extermination site. And then a great number of people were systematically exterminated there. And then later we can also go into discussion of numbers and...

perhaps the ways it was conducted. Yeah, I mean, and this is, I think, one of the things that makes, you know, places like Sennibar so sort of interesting from a Holocaust perspective is the hybrid nature, right? It's a place that's doing lots of things for lots of different groups of people. And, you know, one of the things, I mean, it's sort of in the background of all of this, you know, of course, is the Nazis. And,

Waitman (26:25.097)
Yeah, I mean, and this is, I think one of the things that makes, you know, places like you said about so sort of interesting from a Holocaust perspective is the hybrid nature, right? It's a place that's doing lots of things for lots of different groups of people. You know, one of the things, I mean, it's sort of in the background of all of this, you know, of course, is the Nazis and sort of their system. But.

Stipe (26:52.161)
and sort of their system. But, you know, for example, if we take Jews, for example, you know, what is the Eustitia trying to do? Are they following along in the sense of the way the Nazis decided by that time, by 42, that they're going to physically exterminate Jews, that they're going to solve the so -called Jewish question through physical extermination? Is that the same thing that the Eustitia is doing, or are they taking a different path on that? Similar.

Waitman (26:54.601)
You know, for example, if we take if we take Jews, for example, you know, what what is the Eustachia trying to do? Are they trying to? Are they following along in the sense of the way the Nazis decided by by that time, by 42, that they're going to physically exterminate Jews, that they're going to solve the so -called Jewish question through physical extermination? Is that is that the same thing that the Eustachia is doing or are they taking a different path on that?

Stipe (27:21.792)
So initially they were perhaps slightly hesitant and then they required, for instance, from a Jewish community in Zagreb to pay exorbitant sum of money to save them. Then they also opened some small ways of getting Croatian citizenship even as a Jew, which was very difficult to get. However, under stronger and stronger pressure from Germany, they very quickly

orient themselves towards full participation in a final solution. So they become, they start systematically exterminating Jews with the idea of eliminating them from the state as the enemies of the state as well. So these two ideologies finally merged together. So anti -Semitism on one hand, and then this paranoia against any internal enemy within the newly established creation state.

This again, as I said, was applied also to Roma community, which is far less known story. Their extermination, we are really not sure about the numbers, but some approximation state that their extermination was even above 90 or even 96%. Why do we know so little about them? First, this was already a marginalized population.

Most of them were illiterate and many of them were not even known in national census. So we never securely surely know the number. They existed even before the war. And then even when they entered the concentration camps, many of them were not even marked by names. So we would just know 70 Roma people entered the camp on that and that day. So now.

after the war. There were very few people among them who were even literate to write memoirs, to say what happened. And again, the community continued to be marginalized even in the period of the communist Yugoslavia. So we have very few experts and this story of Roma suffering is really, really almost

Stipe (29:46.72)
unknown. We wanted to rectify this, so there's one contribution in this book which explains specific suffering from a population within the state. But, important to underline, already very soon after the establishing of the state, there is a state legislation which targets those two groups precisely based on their race.

Yeah, and I should point out for listeners, if you want to know more about precisely this phenomenon that Stipo just pointed out, episode 14 with Ari Joskovich is also specifically about sort of the Roma experience. And again, to highlight what Ari mentioned, but also Stipo just has as well, in a way that doesn't happen, I think, with antisemitism, it remains socially acceptable.

Waitman (30:14.601)
Yeah, and I should point out for listeners, if you want to know more about precisely this phenomenon that Stippo just pointed out, episode 14 with Ari Joskovich is also specifically about sort of the Roma experience. And again, to highlight what Ari mentioned, but also Stippo just has as well, in a way that doesn't happen, I think, with antisemitism, it remains socially acceptable.

Stipe (30:44.383)
in a lot of ways to be sort of anti -Roma after the war. And so there is a continuity between pre -war, wartime and post -war persecutions and discrimination against Roma people that you don't see with other groups that bears repeating. So if we think about it a little bit more about the camp itself, you know, so what were the...

Waitman (30:44.489)
in a lot of ways to be sort of anti Roma after the war. And so there's there is a continuity between pre war wartime and post war persecutions and discrimination against Roma people that you don't see with other groups that bears repeating. So if we if we think about a little bit more about the camp itself, you know, so we're the.

Stipe (31:14.751)
Were they used to show rounding up populations and sending them to Senevac? And then what's the process? You know, what's the process for killing, you know, for lack of a better word? And who's doing this? Yeah. So, well, the one of our contributors to the book, also a historian of this period, compared the Nazi system.

Waitman (31:14.793)
where they used to show rounding up populations and sending them to Sinovac. And then what's the process, you know, what's the process for killing, you know, for lack of a better word, and who's doing this?

Stipe (31:43.167)
to Yassenovitz system. So while the first one was compared to a industry of killing, the second one, Yassenovitz, was represented through a metaphor of manufacture of all possible cruelties. Why was this the case? So unlike in Germain's In the Reich, where the killing was conducted, well,

depending on the, of course, concentration camp, but was conducted by using also gas chambers, large -scale killings, very industrial in a way, if we can continue to use that metaphor. Yesenovac did not have that form of facilities. Just to be a little bit more precise, they did initially try to construct a...

gas chambers, but they were so badly constructed that they functioned only for several months. And then they experimented with gas vans for exterminating people, which also was not successful experiment again, under quotation marks. So most of the people then were killed and tortured manually using blunt objects or sharp knives. That was the main...

Waitman (32:45.225)
Wow.

Stipe (33:06.845)
form of exterminating people inside the camp. So when they would come to the camp, they would be assigned to different duties. Some of those who were more able bodies, who were necessary for work, were then sent to work. With time, of course, when they held deteriorated, they would be executed. Very few survived. Some who were sent only

to a penitentiary to serve the term. Some of them did come back alive. So now again to depict a little bit what's going on there. So again depending of which year we're talking about the living conditions had different degrees of depravity but it was always always very difficult. Now aside from that they did occasionally organize

the so -called recreational activities, partially to entertain the guards in the camp. So for instance, on Sundays, they've organized football matches and they also forced some former musicians to perform. Now, today, some revisionist groups see this as a proof that the living conditions were basically decent since people had...

concerts, they were performing operas, singing or playing football and volleyball, stating, listen, this was basically a prison for political prisoners of the time, nothing spectacularly cruel, which is really far from the truth. So based on the testimonies of the survivors, as well as material evidence, we know that the execution was

permanent and systematic. So the leaders of the camp, especially Luboric and some people around him, some were especially known as sadistic. So they would also from time to time perform especially cruel acts to show power, to scare other people, or to prove some points, right? How, about the regime, about...

Stipe (35:28.092)
in utility to fight against. At the same time, we do have groups within the camp who are resisting in different ways. One group is organizing a resistance who were mostly communist, who will eventually manage to break out the camp at the end of the war. But there were also different forms of resistance. So some people would write books.

Very interesting case for females who were writing recipes together to keep the memories of their history of cooking and preserving the recipes if they survived to their kids. Some were making arts objects for one another with inscriptions inspiring some form of hope, resilience that bad things will pass away, that something more deep and profound will stay.

Some were inscribing their names on the bricks so that at least some trace of their existence remains. But all this remains within this frame of cruelty and deep, deep depravity. Yeah, and a lot of that resonates with some of the things that I've come across in my work as well. And I guess, so if we move forward a little bit,

Waitman (36:41.385)
Yeah, and a lot of that resonates with some of the things that I've come across in my work as well. And I guess, so if we move forward a little bit, I think the next sort of important thing to talk about that's also raised by the book that you and your editors have written with your co -authors, if we can talk a little bit about numbers, and then we can talk about,

Stipe (36:54.14)
I think the next sort of important thing to talk about that's also raised by the book that you and your editors have written with your co -authors, if we can talk a little bit about numbers, and then we can talk about what happens to the camp after the war in two areas, right? So the first is, what happens to the people who, the perpetrators,

Waitman (37:11.017)
what happens to the camp after the war in two areas, right? So the first is, you know, what happens to the people who, the perpetrators, and what happens to the space itself, which I think is also really interesting.

Stipe (37:23.26)
and what happens to the space itself, which I think is also really interesting. Okay. So perhaps then we can go chronologically. Yeah. So already then in March and April of 45, the camp was bombed by Allied forces and destroyed. So the majority of buildings are already destroyed. And then in April 22nd, there's this uprising of people inside the camp.

which managed to break through. So now already a lot of infrastructure was destroyed. And then moving even more a few days later, the Ustasha authorities decide to destroy the evidence. Again, we need to remind the listeners that one part of the last phase of the genocidal ideology, very usually, is not just the destruction.

but also the elimination of the traces of this destruction. So the claim is finally that these people never have existed even. Right. So now the camp was in a very bad shape already at the end of the war, which will become a problem later. I'll explain why in a second. Aside from that later, some people in surrounding areas since this area was bombed were using also construction materials.

to rebuild their own houses. So it's becoming even less and less visible how the camp was organized, in which way, and it's really just deeply destroyed, right? So now we are already at the end of the war. So we are now speaking about May 45. Another event now, again, deeply controversial, but linked to Jasenovac in ways of collective memory.

is Blyborg. So I really need to take a second or two to explain this event because it really comes all the time in tandem with the Asenovac. So when people go on internet they will very often read the Asenovac and Blyborg and for some this might create confusion that these are two concentration camps. No, they have a very different history. So I explained that the camp itself was destroyed.

Stipe (39:48.122)
large parts of it. So now the independent state of Croatia is losing the war. So they're now withdrawing through Slovenia to Austria, a large number of them. So civilians together with the army. When they surrender around the place in Austria called Blyburg, right? So on the area surrounding it and the very, very place Blyburg.

Once there, British forces decide to expatriate them. So decide that, no, we cannot take your surrender. You need to surrender to Yugoslav army. Who is the Yugoslav army? So now these are Yugoslav communists who eventually at the end won the war. So now once they surrender, they were forced to go back.

to their original territories. And meanwhile, a large number of them were executed. So this execution, and now in speaking of, we are still not sure about the numbers, but 60 ,000 to 70 ,000 people were executed. So this is after the war. This particular event. And this is by the Yugoslav. By the Yugoslav army. Exactly. This particular event was then.

Waitman (41:07.849)
And this is by the Yugoslav government. By Tito. Tito and them. Yeah.

Stipe (41:15.385)
Of course, forbidden, it was censored from the historiography of the Yugoslavia. Basically, it was almost impossible to speak about this. But it remained a large trauma, hidden trauma among the people. However, those who were killed and massively executed were some people who were directly involved in executions in Jasenovac, so guards, members of the army, but also...

civilians. So this is Blyburg, right? So now as I already stated, I mentioned the numbers. This is a hidden number basically until the fall of Yugoslavia. So what was the number of victims of Jasenovac?

Now, very soon after the end of the war, Yugoslavia, second Yugoslavia, communist under Tito is established and as a part, as a member of the winning alliance, they participate first in Nuremberg trials and then Paris conference for reparations. At both of these events, they were asked to provide an estimation of the number of victims. Right.

So for Nuremberg trials, they said around 600 ,000 people were killed until the end of 1943. Later, during the reparation discussions, they stated that the number of victims, so in Yugoslavia, of all victims, was around 1 ,700 ,000. And then somehow around the same time, the number of 700 ,000 Jasenovac victims, so only victims of Jasenovac,

becomes established. So how was this established? This was on the one side influenced by desire simply to ask higher reparations by Germany. That's one. Second, there was a desire to take one large symbolic number perhaps to represent just enormous suffering of all people in these territories. Right?

Stipe (43:30.424)
And the third element is that some of people who survived when interviewed, they would give approximations, but of course they were not capable of giving correct approximations. So they would, for instance, say until that and that time around 400 ,000 people were killed. So all these converge together and this one number, 700 ,000 of victims of Jesenovitz, soon becomes an official number of the victims.

within the communist Yugoslavia. So now important to state the ideology of the communist Yugoslavia was what they called brotherhood and unity. So it was basically a unifying project. So their idea was we were all victims of the occupiers and their collaborators. But it was not really acceptable to speak in ethnic terms stating that Croats did this or Serbs did that.

this or this. So the it was a bit taboo to use these ethnic terms. And this is very much in some ways like the like the Soviet do not divide the dead argument, right, which is which is how they sort of erase Jews from from the Holocaust in occupied Soviet Union sounds like. Correct. One one reason was this to claim we're all victims and we all suffered enormously. And this new state project is built on this collective suffering. Right.

Waitman (44:33.321)
And this is very much in some ways like the Soviet do not divide the dead argument, right, which is how they sort of erase Jews from the Holocaust in occupied Soviet Union, sounds like.

Stipe (44:55.8)
Second thing was also perhaps to avoid collective blame to one part of the people. And then all these came together within the state building project and memory building project, stating we soft enormously, this should never happen again. And the guarantee of this never happening again is a strong Yugoslav state. So now we start with the number of 700 ,000 victims of Jasenovac.

established very early, which becomes a symbolic number basically to represent enormous suffering. Now Germany later did ask for a list of individual victims in order to send the war reparations to Yugoslavia. So the state at some point organizes really a census trying to write down the names of each individual victim died in each site around the country, including Jasenovac.

So the most, there were several attempts to do this. The most comprehensive one was done in 1964. However, the census of all victims within the whole territory of the new state came to a number of 600 ,000. So this is much less than expected. They did state that the list was incomplete and that they collected around

60 % of the data. However, 600 ,000 fall victims meant also that there were around 90 ,000 victims in all camps, right? Which was then again, far, far less than the officially stated number just for the Asenovats. So this led to a moratorium on publication of the census. So it was kept secret.

and nobody basically had access until 1990s.

Stipe (46:58.295)
And then meanwhile, in exile, there are also several attempts to estimate the number of victims. So in the whole Yugoslavia, but also concentration camps based on demographic data. And these attempts, so Kocevich and Zherievich, which were the two most important demographers, also converged around the number of 80 ,000.

victims of Jasenovac, which of course could not have been published during the regime of communist Yugoslavia. So now we have official number 700 ,000. We have some estimates based on demographic data, which are far less. And we had forbidden publication of the list of victims, which also came with numbers which were far, far less. Meanwhile, Jasenovac itself becomes a symbol

of national suffering and unity. And this joint suffering was represented by a stone flower, so enormous building built in 60s at the site of Jasenovac, which was a symbol of hope, stating we had roots deep down in darkness and suffering, however we are oriented towards future, which was of course the socialist communist future. The site itself,

at the same time was largely destroyed. So you couldn't see the buildings and the way it really functioned. So most of it now was just a meadow and then the museum, which again was led by the idea of this national suffering and unity. Now, mind you, things will change drastically after 87 in Yugoslavia with the shift in power when Milosevic come in power in Serbia.

and then co -opts basically the leadership of the communist Yugoslavia and the narrative suddenly drastically changes. So this will be a form of afterlife of Jasenovac, which at this time we had a new wave of extreme nationalist politicians, public intellectuals, which even exaggerated the previous numbers of victims.

Stipe (49:26.262)
So just before the wars in 1990s, the new numbers were one million of victims just in Jasenovac. And then it changed among some extreme politicians to one million of only Serbian victims in Jasenovac. And then some new names and concepts started circulating, such as that Jasenovac was the largest Serbian city underground. And then...

Waitman (49:43.593)
Hmm.

Stipe (49:56.373)
Added to this was the idea that there's potentially new genocide being prepared against the Serbs in Croatia. And then it needs to be prevented at all costs. The memorial exhibition itself will also change after the visit of the delegation from Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1987. And while it before promoted this idea of unity,

some form of communist future, all people, all ethnicities together. Now the emphasis will be placed precisely on massacres, dismembered bodies, sufferings, and basically terror. This exhibition will also make rounds as a mobile exhibition visiting military barracks under the name The Dead Are Opening the Eyes of the Living.

And this very exhibition linked to Jasenovac would be also in some cases linked to the war crimes in revenge during the 1990s. How do we know? Because at the ICTY to International Court for Former Yugoslavia, we had some testimonies of people saying, I saw the exhibition. This is why I reacted preemptively or in revenge. So now we have several layers of history. One was the original.

Jasenovac, which was, as I said, the place of describable suffering. Second layer was this Yugoslav Jasenovac, which was symbolic place of 700 ,000 victims of all nationalities, so inspiring us to move forward. And then the third one was this nationalist appropriation of Jasenovac as a form of

reappropriation of national trauma, stating the Yugoslav state did not allow us to speak in ethnic terms, however we were the real victims of this genocide and this prosecution. And then since they lied in this respect, they also lied with respect to the numbers of victims. It was not even 700 ,000, it was 1 million, or even in some cases 2 million of victims. Right.

Stipe (52:21.94)
So we already had this enormous war over numbers. So after the war, of course, this was an extremely difficult challenge. So the newly established Jasenovac Memorial site at the what's contemporary Republic of Croatia with the new exhibition in 2005 had enormous challenge. One, that we had a history of the site, which was destroyed.

Second, the history of representation of misrepresentation. And third, the enormous fights with the numbers of the victims. As a reaction among Croatian extremists, partially as a reaction to these exaggerations, they were also negation of crimes. And some were then staying, basically there were maybe 2 ,000 prisoners there.

and they didn't suffer at all. So how do you deal with this situation? How do you deal with these legacies of history, but also layers of historical trauma? So the decision was made to now organize the new exhibition against the single concept of victims. And the name of the exhibition is Victim is a Name. And the decision was to collect all the possible empirical data together.

and make the list of every individual victim to triangulate whenever possible the data. So the museum then came with the number of currently 83 ,145 victims, which is incomplete, but that's the current estimation. And then luckily now with this book, we also managed also to bring some historians from the Serbian side.

when there's now enormous progress. And some form of consensus among historians is that there's between, so 83 ,000 to up to 120 ,000 victims, historical victims of Yacinovits. But this, again, to underline, this number, perhaps as an empirical fact, coexists with many other numbers, some.

Stipe (54:45.811)
exaggerated for war and propaganda purposes and some extremely minimized for revisionist purposes. So it's still a site not just of representation but also contestation. Yeah, I mean, gosh, there's so much to talk about with that. I mean, and this is something you see elsewhere too. I mean, Auschwitz went through this process as well, you know, with I think some early...

Waitman (55:00.553)
Yeah, I mean, gosh, there's so much to talk about with that. I mean, and this is something you see elsewhere, too. I mean, Auschwitz went through this process as well. You know, I think some earlier numbers there were something like four million, and then obviously it's been revised. And, you know, in the case of Auschwitz, the sort of the Holocaust denier side then says exactly what I guess the Croatian extreme right says, which is, well, if they were

Stipe (55:11.89)
earlier numbers there was something like four million and then obviously it's been revised and you know in the in the case of Auschwitz the sort of the Holocaust denier side then says exactly what I guess the Croatian extreme right says which is well if they were if they were quote lying about this number then you know maybe they're lying about the whole thing and you know let's call the whole thing off kind of situation. One of the things that I think is really fascinating about

Waitman (55:28.329)
If they were quote, lying about this number, then maybe they're lying about the whole thing and let's call the whole thing off kind of situation. One of the things that I think is really fascinating about the memory politics that you've portrayed, and I'd be curious to hear more about this, is the sort of Serbian versus Croatian contested memory piece.

Stipe (55:41.81)
the memory politics that you've portrayed. And I'd be curious to hear more about this. And is the sort of Serbian versus Croatian contested memory piece? And particularly the way that it's used in another genocide. I mean, I think that's a really fascinating connection. The ways in which the Serbs who are the bad guys in a lot of ways, certainly in...

Waitman (55:54.729)
And particularly the way that it's used in another genocide. I mean, I think that's, that's a really fascinating connection. The ways in which the Serbs who are the bad guys in a lot of ways, certainly in, in, in the Balkan genocides, but are legitimately the victims in, in Jasenovac. And, you know, you have this moment where the victims become the perpetrators.

Stipe (56:11.377)
in the Balkan genocides, but are legitimately the victims in Yasenovac. And you have this moment where the victims become the perpetrators. But also, you mentioned, I'm gonna mispronounce it, but is it Saimistje? So there's a Serbian camp, but is that run by Serbians in the same way? Or, I mean, how?

Waitman (56:24.745)
But also, you know, you mentioned, and I'm going to mispronounce it, but was it Saimistje? So there's a Serbian camp, but is that run by Serbians in the same way? Or, I mean, do you see them going, how can you, tell us more about sort of how this memory works with like the 1990s genocide and the.

Stipe (56:41.105)
You see them going, how can you tell us more about sort of how this memory works with like the 1990s genocide? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very good, but at the same time, very complex question. So Saimishte, in contrast to Jasenovac, was run by Gestapo. OK. So there was a different organization and leadership of the camp. But again, similar level of cruelty.

happening there as well. So now this is exactly true what you just said. Serbs were the biggest victims, so the ethnic Serbs in the concentration camp of Yassenots. This is simply empirical fact and they were the victims of targeted genocide within the independent state of creation. So now when we move from history and maybe forensic facts, we enter this area of memory.

politics, that the memory of suffering itself can be misappropriated and become a form of toxic memory, right? If it's used to incite different crimes. And another thing that needs to be taken here in consideration is some form of what we call competitive victimhood, right? So Jasenovac was established as a

sacrosanct place of suffering for Yugoslavia. But don't forget there's another site which is suppressed during all this period and that's Blyburg. So when the regime falls among especially among right -wing Croats they would seek to first re -establish Blyburg as antithesis to Jasenovac.

So instead of using these two sides to build some form of empathy for all victims and perhaps trying to not confuse them, but at the same time to establish some form of empathy for all innocently civilian victims while preserving the distinction, we also had this competition for even words. So for instance, each at the beginning of the wars,

Stipe (59:06.416)
each group suddenly starts to fight to have their own, under quotation mark, Holocaust. So not only massacres, not only genocide, but also their own proper Holocaust. So there's also this competition around the names. So this is already before. And now we come to this period of 1990s with the end of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. So.

Dayton agreements in 1995. There's so many crimes again happening within the territories of the communist Yugoslavia, which were not neutral crimes. So some of them were simply a revenge against the background of the suffering in the second world war. And some of them were also linked to even further historical periods of Ottoman and Turkish occupation, right?

So now we are speaking already of the domain of memory politics, when the memory of suffering becomes the source of toxicity and revenge. So now today, again, we could call that would be a desire in a direction of what Rodber calls multi -directional memory, meaning that we do respect specificities of each

specific site of suffering. However, we're trying to build some convergences among them and to learn from each of them a lesson. All this in direction of mutual understanding, coexistence and perhaps even reconciliation, right? However, what also happens, and now recently there was this commemoration in the Republic of Srpska, again to remind the listeners, Republic of Srpska is not the same as Republic of Serbia.

So Republic of Srpska is a federal entity within the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it's controlled mostly by Serbs. So one part of the former five camps is now on the territory of this Republic of Srpska. It's called Donja Gradina. So recently now there was a commemoration of the victims of Jasenovac.

Waitman (01:01:11.273)
Okay.

Stipe (01:01:32.079)
And again, Miroslav Dodik, who's a very nationalist politician, seen often as a leader in Republika Srpska, is now again trying to say the Republic of Srpska is the only legitimate protector of Serbian people, and again using the number of 700 ,000 victims of Jasenovac to say...

here we are to protect you against any possibility of a new genocide against the Serbs. Meanwhile, mind you, there's all these efforts, especially within the Republic of Srpska, to either minimize or straightforwardly deny, for instance, the genocide in Srebrenica from 1995. You see? So now we come in this extremely complex constellation where Jasenovac is never simply neutral.

Waitman (01:02:17.481)
Mm -hmm.

Stipe (01:02:27.822)
It means different things to different people. But the worst way of using or of commemorating perhaps Jesenovac is to use Jesenovac for ideological purposes, either to minimize the victims, historical victims, or to minimize different victims of different periods of time, or to create some aura of collective blame.

which again legitimates new political projects which are not democratic projects now anyway. So it all exists in this extremely complex territory of not just history but also memory. So the aim of the book that we really desire to achieve was first...

start with rigorous historical scientific research to establish some shared grounds of understanding. We do understand, of course, that there are legitimate spheres of disagreement. We can never really know the exact numbers of the victims of Jasenovac or other sites. We do not know for sure the exact numbers of Roma victims. But we can at least establish some shared outlines.

for the understanding around which the scientists can converge. But most importantly, again, to make some form of shared understanding as a barrier against two extremes of denialism, extremism and revisionism. Yeah, I mean, gosh, there's so much there too. I'm already thinking of, you know, this Blyborg versus Jasenovac thing is very much...

Waitman (01:04:08.841)
Yeah, I mean, gosh, there's so much there too. I'm already thinking of, you know, this Blyborg versus Jasenovac thing is very much in some ways similar to, I mean, you see this in Lithuania with, you know, these sort of groups that were alive with the Nazis, but then fought the Soviets, you know, and get persecuted by the Soviets for having done that. But also to put a...

Stipe (01:04:19.15)
In some ways similar to, I mean, you see this in Lithuania with these sort of groups that were alive with the Nazis, but then fought the Soviets and get persecuted by the Soviets for having done that. But also to put a more finer point on it, you have the German expelees from Eastern Europe, right? I think Germans who are expelled, and to be fair, you know,

Waitman (01:04:37.577)
a more sort of finer point on it. You have the German expelees from Eastern Europe, right? Ethnic Germans who are expelled. And to be fair, many of them die from starvation and exposure and things like this. And many of them are, as you point out, sort of civilians who we would sort of call innocent, but then it becomes very much this competitive victimhood thing that you're sort of suggesting. And where...

Stipe (01:04:49.261)
many of them die from starvation, exposure, and things like this. And many of them are, as you point out, civilians who we would call innocent, but then it becomes very much this competitive victimhood thing that you're suggesting. Who's the real victim here kind of thing. And I'm curious, you talked a little about this, and we've talked a lot about memory, and of course there are lots of different kinds of memory.

Waitman (01:05:08.009)
Who's the real victim here kind of thing. And I'm curious, you talked a little about this and we've talked a lot about memory. And of course there are lots of different kinds of memory, right? And we sort of have the popular, popular memory, cultural memory, political memory. I'm curious a little bit about maybe if you could talk a little bit about the judicial memory of this. I mean, you talked about, you know, okay, there were those who get repatriated from Blyborg.

Stipe (01:05:19.021)
Right? And we sort of have the popular, popular memory, cultural memory, political memory. I'm curious a little bit about maybe if you could talk a little bit about the judicial memory of this. I mean, you talked about, you know, okay, there were those who get repatriated from Blyborg and among them are some of the leadership and guards potentially of the camp who are sort of killed, you know, in the sort of more or less indiscriminate kind of, you know.

Waitman (01:05:36.393)
And among them are some of the leadership and guards potentially of the camp who are sort of killed, you know, in the sort of more or less indiscriminate kind of, you know, retaliation by the, by the Yugoslav state. But is there an attempt, is an attempt under Tito, under post -war communist Yugoslavia to seek out Eusticia perpetrators and punish them, you know, via prosecution, number one. And then.

Stipe (01:05:46.157)
retaliation by the Yugoslav state, but is there an attempt under Tito, under post -war communist Yugoslavia to seek out Eusticia perpetrators and punish them via prosecution, number one? And then what happens after communism falls? Is there a rehabilitation of Eusticia by the Croatian government?

Waitman (01:06:06.825)
What happens after communism falls? Is there a rehabilitation of Eustacia by the Croatian government?

Stipe (01:06:16.621)
Mm hmm. Wow. So what happens again? It's never an easy answer. It's really I have to go in several steps. So some of these are good at it. So I can give you these questions because you then come out like a very systematic and clear way. So thank you. So important to state, many of the criminals and some of them who were directly involved.

Waitman (01:06:22.601)
It's complicated, yeah.

Waitman (01:06:28.329)
Yeah, yeah. You're just so good at it. So I know it's like, I feel like I can give you these questions because you then come at it like a very systematic and clear way. So yeah.

Stipe (01:06:45.517)
in the leadership and guards at the Asenovac, precisely the leader of all concentration camps, so Max Luborich, managed to escape. So there were several paths, some of them escaped to Italy, some of them escaped to Austria, a large number of them escaped to Spain and then later to Argentina, right? So some of them simply escaped. And this is the rat line, I think Pavlich was...

Waitman (01:07:09.769)
And this is the rat line. I think Pavlich was one of them, right? That got a Vatican passport, you know, along the same route that people like Eichmann and von Stange from Tripoli took.

Stipe (01:07:12.364)
was one of them, right? Exactly. Vatican passport, you know, along the same route that people like Eichmann and and found a stango from Tripoli that took. So they they tried to escape all around the world, but there were several hotspots of their concentration. So Max Ljuboric himself then established a new life in Spain or Spanish went to military academy, even had some form of small publication house. However, already in

Yugoslav period, they were chased by the state security, so Utba. And some of them, including Luborich, were then assassinated. Simple as that, abroad, right? Some of them were caught and then brought to trial where they admitted crimes before the Yugoslav courts. And this was also important within the Yugoslavia to have

this form of established procedure and then given capital punishment and mostly executed. So there's one. But mind you, these court trials were later sometimes seen as illegitimate. They would say, yeah, but Yugoslav state again did not have clearly established standards for crimes. And this is basically a theater like we had in Soviet Union.

So of course they would admit crimes because they were forced to do so. This is not entirely the case, but you see how some of these procedures could have been delegitimized later. So there were procedures before the Yugoslav courts. And then for small minority, Kolselebra is Shakych. He was...

extradited to Croatia very late, so now 1998, to be judged before the Croatian court where he was really found guilty again for the crimes. But again he would negate them at some point and simply stated this was well, this is well rehearsed defense. This is simply

Stipe (01:09:35.595)
and attempts to eliminate the enemies of the state. I didn't do anything which wouldn't any other state official do and so on and so on. So he was condemned before the Croatian court, but this was again very late, right? Meanwhile, while in immigration, they're also trying to establish some form of literature, revisionist literature to rehabilitate themselves. Curiously,

some of them did not negate the crimes and this is sometimes a very interesting source and they themselves admit the crimes they committed. Now when we come to the question of rehabilitation this is again a still point of controversy. So when the newly established state of Croatia declared independence within Yugoslavia then

You already had some smaller right -wing parties that claimed basically heritage and legacy with all their extremist parties, which were basically anti -Serb parties. This, however, happens now within the context of the direct clash with the Yugoslavia controlled by Milošević and basically perceived, again, Serbs as enemies. Within officially,

the discourse of the state. This was, so first president Tuchman was again sometimes accused of rehabilitating the regime, which was not entirely the case. So he was historian already before, in Yugoslavia, when he did write about Jasenovac victims, when he did have a minor, lesser estimation of the Jasenovac victims, but never negated.

the existence of Jasenovac camps. However, the whole milieu, the political atmosphere was such that suddenly some of them felt that even rehabilitating the regime called the independent state of Croatia is necessary now when we have a new war to establish independence. So seeking any form of

Stipe (01:12:00.65)
historical legitimacy with past actions when Croatians had independence. And this was a wrong move, evidently. So then at some parts you would have again streets renamed after the politicians from the independent state of Croatia. The whole communist Yugoslav legacy was perceived again.

as a suppression of Croatian identity, so this was not accepted. However, it was never so extreme that the new regime wanted simply to establish themselves as continuation of the old regime. So they saw in the constitution, they saw themselves also as a continuation of Croatian struggle for independence led by partisans in a way. This was also legitimate.

However, still going on. So now the within the Republic of Croatia, there is generally established agreements in education within the state, within the Ministry of Culture, especially after joining Aira, which is International Holocaust Research Alliance on some common core principles on the historical education about what happened. So these things are not.

negated certainly by the state representatives, politicians who are officially in educational manuals. But, and this is important, and this is these discussions and debates always need to continue. Very recently, so about 10 years ago, we had the new movements established as NGOs, basically, which were revisionist movements. So here,

there would be people, some of them were historians, some of them working in culture who would say, no, the whole history of Jasenovac, all this complete history I just explained, was basically a fake history established by communists to blame Croats. And now we need to rewrite this history. So this is this one form of revisionism.

Stipe (01:14:25.32)
And then again, on the other side, there are also some of mostly Serbian led, under quotation marks, they call themselves research institutes, although they're not, who try to reestablish the old numbers, stating, no, no, no, there are actually 700 ,000, actually 1 million victims of Jesenovac. And all that came later is basically a way...

to erase the suffering, the real suffering of Serbian victims. So you see, although officially on the level of state, at least in Croatia, there is some form, way of moving forward. So especially in collaboration with these international bodies, and now after the, joining the European Union, there's some common framework of memory. These things are becoming mainstreamed.

At the same time, we had these NGOs that tried to rewrite the history once again. And that was one of the motivations for this book, again, speaking about Jasenovac again, but speaking about Jasenovac in a calm, to the way that it's possible, objective or way. Yeah, I mean, and just getting back to Serbia.

Waitman (01:15:40.969)
Yeah, I mean, and just getting back to Serbia.

Stipe (01:15:47.751)
I suspect that part of the goal, it gets back to that sort of competitive victimhood or in some ways genocide denial. For the Serbian perspective, it's let's highlight Jasenovac as a place of Serbian suffering as a way of sort of detraction from what happened, what Serbs did in their own genocide when they were the perpetrators.

Waitman (01:15:47.977)
I suspect that part of the goal, it gets back to that sort of competitive victimhood or in some ways genocide denial. For the Serbian perspective, it's let's highlight Jasenovac as a place of Serbian suffering as a way of detracting from what happened, what Serbs did in their own genocide when they were the perpetrators.

Stipe (01:16:18.375)
So there were two points of contestation. One was this responsibility of Serbian militia or army during the war in 1990s. And the second one, which you mentioned previously, also involvement of Serbs, Serbian state, Andrenedic, in the extermination simply of Jews on the...

on the territory of the regime, especially Stara Osamiste. Well, that's something that, sorry, that's something that it seems like, you know, in this conversation, that, you know, in a lot of conversations about Holocaust sites, particularly those of sort of extermination, you know, that elements of Jewish suffering sort of take the forefront of that, rightly so. It seems like what's interesting about Yisneryvach is...

Waitman (01:16:49.193)
Well, that's something that, sorry, that's something that it seems like, you know, in this conversation, that, you know, in a lot of conversations about Holocaust sites, particularly those of sort of extermination, you know, that elements of Jewish suffering sort of take the forefront of that, rightly so. It seems like what's interesting about Yesenovac is that no one...

Stipe (01:17:14.471)
that no one is concerned about the Jewish numbers, that it's really both sides fighting about ethnic Croat or ethnic Serb number. It's for reasons of their own nationality. And I'm curious then, as we sort of move to the end, where does Jewish suffering factor in, or is it just something that is kind of a footnote to this larger...

Waitman (01:17:16.329)
No one is concerned about the Jewish numbers, that it's really, it's really both sides fighting about ethnic Croat, you know, or ethnic Serb number. I mean, it's, it's for reasons of, of their own nationality. And I'm curious then, you know, as we sort of moved to the end, you know, where does, where does Jewish suffering factor in, or is it just something that is kind of a footnote to this larger national memory battle that you've kind of.

Stipe (01:17:43.366)
national memory battle that you've kind of laid out so well here. Exactly. The, the, again, the, the story is far more complicated, but again, I cannot go into details. I can really recommend Biford's article, which discusses precisely this, the some form of Jewish suffering, getting a backseat in all these theater of competitive victim. Well, I can say,

Waitman (01:17:45.673)
laid out so well here.

Stipe (01:18:12.87)
Maybe on a good note that there is luckily some improvement in this way. That when we talk now about the Asenovits, it's not just seen as a site of suffering of one ethnicity or simply political prison that went extreme. It is really recognized that this was a site where some groups were targeted based on a race. So.

Jewish and Roma population clearly. And at the same time, that we also, they also contained, they also had different groups of people who were targeted on different reasons. And this is important to understand also for young people who are coming as visitors. Again, this is not to minimize that one form of suffering is better than the other, but it's important to know the genealogy.

suffering which is really not the same that the the the causal way that that these people came to the site was not always the same so this is really important to to see right and then I see always Jasenovac as a conversation starter right so to me the story of Jasenovac is never finished in a way that first

Waitman (01:19:11.561)
-huh.

Stipe (01:19:40.902)
it's still going on, but it should go on. What happens in the past in a way obliges us to give a response. And this is basically my very literal understanding of responsibility, a way of response, giving an ethically grounded response to something that still obliges you to speak. So how we envisage the site of Jasenovac, it should be a place of

were building some form of shared understanding about the past, but also some form of strategies of coming to terms with future challenges that really were repetitive in these territories. So at the beginning, when I just really gave broad outlines, you could see that the one suffering did not stop in history. And even there's this notion of where something becomes a history, it's becoming very blurred.

Whether it stops with the end of the event, whether it stops when people stop talking about this, whether it stops when people start talking within families about this, even though it's not present in the public discourse. So many of these historical events coexisted along each other. And again, if Jasenovac is not the only of these sites, but certainly could be a site where some form of moral clarity could be built.

Waitman (01:20:41.577)
Mm -hmm.

Stipe (01:21:10.885)
or shared. Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's a really really great point. And again, I mean, it's just this has been a really fascinating conversation because of the history, but also just the, you know, the way that genocide has happened again in the Balkans and then how this history becomes sort of so so fascinating. But we should close with the sort of final question that I always ask, which is, you know, if you could recommend one book.

Waitman (01:21:12.809)
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really, really great point. And again, I mean, it's just, this has been a really fascinating conversation because of the history, but also just the way that genocide has happened again in the Balkans and then how this history becomes sort of so fascinating. But we should close with the sort of final question that I always ask, which is, if you could recommend one book,

Stipe (01:21:40.453)
on the Holocaust at the moment, what would it be? I'll recommend the book perhaps because I imagine nobody else will recommend it. It's quite unusual recommendation. It's written by Jovan Barifor, who was one of the contributors to our volume and which I think is an excellent book. And it's about conspiracy theories. And it says conspiracy theories, critical introduction. Why is this related to Holocaust? You might ask because he really had some.

Waitman (01:21:40.649)
on the Holocaust at the moment, what would it be?

Waitman (01:21:50.569)
You

Stipe (01:22:09.54)
at one part of the book dedicates to the tradition of conspiratorial thinking and genealogy of these conspiratorial tropes, where he shows how antisemitism very often becomes metrics upon which other conspiracy theories are built upon. So it's a very interesting and pertinent book, especially today, when we have some form of sad flourishing of conspiracy theories all around us.

Wow, that's a great recommendation. I'm going to check it by myself. Yeah. Wow. Thanks so much for coming on, Stipe. This has been an amazing conversation. And as always for listeners, I will put links to Stipe's book, but also his, I mentioned his co -editors here at Danielle Lucic and Andrean Kusnar, who also are responsible for the volume that he's talking about, but were unable to appear. I did ask them.

Waitman (01:22:39.593)
Wow. That's a great recommendation. I'm going to check that one out myself. Yeah. Wow. Thanks so much for coming on, Stipe. This has been an amazing conversation. As always for listeners, I will put links to Stipe's book, but also his, I mentioned his co -editors here, Daniela Lucic and Andriana Kujnar, who also are responsible for the volume that he's talking about, but were unable to appear. I did ask them.

Stipe (01:23:09.092)
but they were unable to appear. So we're very fortunate that Stipe was able to come on the podcast today. As always, if you're finding this podcast helpful, useful, interesting, please leave us a rating or comment. Those things are helpful. And Stipe, once again, thank you so much for coming on. This is amazing. Thank you, Vaiman, for the invitation. It was a great pleasure to be here.

Waitman (01:23:09.289)
but they were unable to appear. So we're very fortunate that Stipe was able to come on the podcast today. As always, if you're finding this podcast helpful, useful, interesting, please leave us a rating or comment. Those things are helpful. And Stipe, once again, thank you so much for coming on. This is amazing.