Ep. 47: A Nazi in the Family with Kai Hoess

What is it like to have a Nazi in the family?  What if that Nazi was Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz? One of the least studied areas of Holocaust history is the ways in which the families and descendants of former Nazis engage with their family history.

I am very grateful to be joined on this week’s podcast by Kai Hoess, grandson of Rudolf Hoess, to talk about his family history and his own journey to coming to terms with his past. As always, this podcast does not endorse any particular religion or religious doctrine.

Kai Hoess is a non-denominational Christian pastor at the Bible Church of Stuttgart.

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Email the podcast at holocausthistorypod@gmail.com

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You can find a complete reading list with books by our guests and also their suggestions here.

Transcript

Waitman Beorn (00:01.006)
Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Holocaust History Podcast. I'm your host, Waipman Bourne. And today we're talking about family histories, which is something that we've talked about before on here. The fact that the Holocaust is something that is ongoing for lots of folks, particularly survivors and their families, but also for perpetrators and their families. And I'm really grateful for our guest today, who is Kai Hess, who is the grandson

of Rudolf Hess, who was the commandant of Auschwitz. And I'm really grateful for him taking the time and being comfortable with sharing his family story with us today. so, Kai, thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Pastor Kai (00:44.734)
You're welcome. Thanks, Bjorn.

Waitman Beorn (00:46.902)
so I guess, you know, I guess the place to start is, with your father. Can you, can you tell us a little about, about him and, and his relationship with your grandfather and we can kind of start, start the family, history there.

Pastor Kai (01:05.469)
Well, you know, what I know from my dad, he, you know, that's what, you know, he always kind of, you know, until he, you know, he came to face the truth, the reality of his childhood and who his father was. He always saw his own childhood as pretty balanced, you know, a nice protected childhood, you know, anyone who watches The Zone of Interest kind of is getting, you know, gets a good picture.

of how he grew up. mean, at least the first six, seven years of his life. And I think him and his dad had a pretty harmonious father-son relationship. know, Rudolph has spent time with his son, with his children generally. You know, they had good, you know, bonding time, leisure time activities. I mean, they lived in that house. had a beautiful, you know, yard and toys. What, you know,

back in those days, think they, what they had was pretty top notch in sense of, know, children activities. And so, yeah, that's how he grew up. You he himself, remember he was six, seven years old. He did not recall, I think, much of the things that went on, you know, in and around their, I mean, their life, you know, on the other side of the fence, you know, and on the side of the concentration camp where his father was.

murdering, industrially murdering millions of people. yeah, so you had a pretty healthy, I think from a human perspective, a pretty healthy upbringing. Does that kind of answer your question?

Waitman Beorn (02:49.324)
Yeah, mean, and there were multiple kids, right? And so he was one of several, right?

Pastor Kai (02:56.062)
Yeah, he was the second oldest, Sorry, the second youngest. And his sister, Bridget, had a great influence on his life. spent a lot of time with her. And yeah, I guess he enjoyed his childhood.

Waitman Beorn (03:13.966)
And did he, did he talk about, about this with you, you know, growing up before, and we'll talk about the documentary a little bit later on, but did he talk about, you know, his, his father or the, the, the time during, during the third Reich with you, or is that something, topic conversation?

Pastor Kai (03:31.708)
Well, are you referring to the time when I was young or a young boy? Okay, no, no, we did not. Absolutely not. I mean, we, I think it was like, you know, mentioned this several times in other interviews, but I think it was in sixth, seventh grade that I found out about him, about who he was, who we were when in school history lesson, they...

Waitman Beorn (03:36.31)
Yeah, when you were younger, like when you were a kid, yeah.

Pastor Kai (04:00.84)
They mentioned that in Germany Holocaust education is mandatory. yeah, I just heard the name or talk about the concentration camps. And I remember hearing that name, Huss. And that day I went home and I asked my mom, said, that name, the spelling like our name? Does it have anything to do with us? And she said, yeah, that's your grandfather, Rudolf Huss, the commandant of Auschwitz.

And I was shocked, Shocked in a sense, I was ashamed and I felt like going to school, everyone knows who I am. So I wasn't really fond of that kind of that family legacy for my, mean, sixth, seventh grade, obviously, you don't really know how to relate to that properly. But I remember feeling ashamed and...

It was mentioned at home, of course, after that, after I asked and found out and I knew my parents knew. You know, my mom didn't even know. My dad didn't tell my mom. And, you know, they were married for five years when it was an aunt that came over and told and asked my mom, you know, have a look. She showed her a newspaper clipping. And she said, is that does that got anything to do with your husband? And and then she asked my dad and he kind of yeah, he yeah, he he said yes.

That's my, that is my dad. So he kept it a secret even from his wife. He didn't want to talk about it. He felt ashamed. And I know that was a lot of shame in our family. And that's kind of also this kind transgenerational curse, this darkness that kind of moves forward. It goes on to the next generation when you don't deal with such things in your family.

So and we never really went into the weeds on this. We never worked through it. We never talked about it in detail. I remember my dad saying, you know, I hate what happened. I wish I could make it undone, but I didn't do it and it's done. You know, it happened. What can we do? And so we didn't really it was never really addressed in detail or worked through in a way. So.

Waitman Beorn (06:13.336)
Was it something that, I'm just curious, did other people sort of know about it? friends and acquaintances and neighbors? mean, cause I'm guessing, I mean, guessing Hess isn't a super, you know, common last name. mean, was it, huss, sorry, yuh-huss.

Pastor Kai (06:31.902)
It's actually Huss, you pronounce it, it's Huss. Huss was the other guy that spanned out that in Berlin. So yeah, it's, as far as I know, no one knew unless people knew and were so polite, kind, didn't mention it, because how people are, they don't wanna hurt you, they wanna be, yeah, that's right. But I know the family knew, mean, everyone of course knew.

Waitman Beorn (06:36.94)
Yeah, yeah.

Waitman Beorn (06:48.236)
Yeah, I mean, it would come up in a normal conversation.

Waitman Beorn (06:55.886)
And so what was your relationship like with, did you have relationship with your grandmother? So with with Rudolf Huss's wife.

Pastor Kai (07:05.854)
We called her Grandma Hedwig. mean, Oma Hedwig in German. Grandma Hedwig, yeah, sure. She visited on and off. She spent time with us during vacation, school vacation. She'll come over for a couple of weeks, help my mom. We'd visit her. She lived in Ludwigsburg, not far away. So from us, it's like a 30-minute drive. So we spent time, not a lot, not like the relatives on my mother's side.

Yeah, she was, I remember she was strict. She was organized. She was disciplined. You know, and my mom always and I can't mention that as well before, my mom always felt kind of intimidated because Grandma Hedwig was like, you know, she was, yeah, Lady of the Manor. I guess that's the role she played back in Auschwitz and how she, the role she got used to and again brings that out very, really, I think

Jonathan Glazer brings it out really well in his film. From what I remember, I mean, again, being a young boy, know, my recollection, I guess, is limited back to those days, you in detail. I remember some key, you know, she, I remember my brother was like chewing nails and she was really on him, you know, trying to, you know, get him off that habit. So, you know, she was tough in a sense, like with the way, you know, raising kids, clearly disciplinarian style upbringing that was

what she was used to. But like we didn't have her, like I said, we didn't spend that much time with her once in a while in a summer break or something, we spent a few weeks with her.

Waitman Beorn (08:43.412)
And did you have relationship with, I guess, your uncles, your aunts and uncles, so your father's siblings?

Pastor Kai (08:50.162)
Yeah, again, know, Uncle Klaus lived in Australia. He had, you know, moved there with his wife and his family. Richard, they were in the States in the US and Washington. So the family was kind of fragmented. then we had, of course, the German part of the family that stayed here. They were up north. That's like a 900 kilometer. That's a 10 hour drive back in those days. You don't see them every day.

The others were up in Fulda. So, you know, they're all over the place. So we didn't really spend a lot of time with our family. You know, we had an uncle in Kalmar. I remember that was, know, Hedwig's brother. We visited him maybe once or twice, I don't know. So, not really that much connections or, you know, with the family, my dad's family.

Waitman Beorn (09:44.93)
Was that? Yeah.

Pastor Kai (09:45.126)
And they did come and visit. mean, the American part, you know, they came in, they came in and I know in the 70s, we had several family gatherings where they actually flew in from the US and remember them as just nice people. remember Alan Peck, was some, Bridget's first husband, you know, was, I think he was here. He was based in Europe with, he was a part of the Pershing, setting up the Pershing defense system here in Europe.

she met him, Richard met him, and they got married. So I met him, he was a really nice guy, remember that, very friendly chap.

Waitman Beorn (10:18.53)
Do you think that there's something to the sort of geographic fragmentation of your family? Because it seems like lots of the immediate descendants went really far away from Germany.

Pastor Kai (10:34.088)
Yeah, sure. Obviously. Yeah, sure. think maybe I'm not sure to what extent it was. It was a premeditated flight trying to, you know, run away, you know, escape the reality here. But like I said, Bridget's case, she met an American, you know, he's specialist working here, you know, top secret stuff. And she met him. She was a model for she was modeling Balenciaga doing, you know, and so they kind of, I don't know.

I don't know if she actually planned that, but I think it was a new life in the US. She welcomed that. then also, Uncle Klaus going to Australia, that probably... I'm not sure. I can't answer that question, honestly. I'm sure people obviously try to get away from a bad history or from a family legacy like this. But I couldn't tell you affirmatively that they did that.

planned this, know, purposely to actually escape Germany.

Waitman Beorn (11:36.078)
Have you had conversations with them since sort of the, guess, your being more open about this and your father confronting it more directly? Have you had conversations with other parts of the family or is this something that sort of you and your father are doing?

Pastor Kai (11:59.346)
Well, we knew, again, I was a young boy, but in the family, mean, not from my mother's side, maternal side, but the general consensus was it wasn't all that bad. he did, that's what they kind of felt, that he did do a lot of good things for Germany and considering what happened to Germany after the First World War, the contract of Rezegh and

all that, the terrible things that happened to Germany after that and the consequences of the First World War and just the political instability and everything that was going on in Germany. And so they felt that Adolf Hitler actually did a lot of good. I've seen this a lot with people. I've seen this with my wife in her own country, Soharto. There's people today that did well.

know, under him and they still look back and say those were good days. I mean, I see that from people I know in the Philippines that look back to the days when Marcus was in power and they were right at the top of the so say the food chain and, that all changed suddenly and they still look back and say those were the good old days. So I think I think there's a lot of that when you do well in the system when life's good, you tend to look back and maybe just embellish it a little bit or just, you know,

because you did well. I think politically, ideologically, they did also still feel that it was the right way to go for Germany of what happened during the Third Reich and the fascist ideology to some extent. Again, I was too young to really fully understand all that and ask the question, so I just

There's fragments of things that I remember, but.

Waitman Beorn (14:01.398)
Yeah, I mean, but I think it's interesting because, you know, you have taken a different path, you know, very clearly. And maybe we can talk about a little bit about sort of when you started confronting your family history as an adult and sort of and how that's changed over time and then how that how that relates to your relationship with your father, perhaps.

Pastor Kai (14:28.026)
I have to go back a little bit earlier than that. was in my mid teens. And I remember that because my mom had this book, The Commandant of Auschwitz. And she had that on her bookshelf. And I just remember this is, know, it's like his memoirs. it wasn't German. I thought, you know, I want to read that. And so I read that book and I remember

1617 it really broke my heart when I just read his report, you this clinical list report of the things he did, his professional achievements, so to speak. It's crazy when you think about it, you know, from the moment he got the order. I mean, he also talks about his past, his childhood a little bit, and you know, what brought him to that point in history. But, you know, when Himmler called him and asked him to take on this project, know, Auschwitz, the zone of interest.

and the whole, to finalize the final solution, the end lösung. And when you read that, when I read that back as a teen, it broke my heart. I couldn't believe it, what he did, how he could do that, how he could be so heartless, so calloused to actually carry out those orders.

And I mean, I never swallowed these, although I had an order, I had to fulfill the orders I was given. I could never swallow that because people always have a choice, right? And when you have to do something like that, how can you go through with it? And knowing that you're gonna be killing, murdering millions, literally millions of people, children, women, I mean, just people. And that really hurt me. And from that moment, I mean, I remember that actually.

Waitman Beorn (16:03.63)
Mm-hmm.

Pastor Kai (16:20.698)
When I read that book and I realized what can I do? How can I do anything to make it right? And of course, 16, 17, what can you do, right? Not much. so I remember I wanted to embrace those people, those, mean, give them a big hug, embrace them and say sorry to them for what my grandfather did to them and their families. So many of them, so much bloodshed, so much suffering and pain that he caused.

of the evil that he perpetrated. And then of course growing up, you wanted to know as an adult, growing up, life happens, right? So you finish school and you kind of set your mind on a career path, which I did, and I wanted to become a hotel manager. So I the military German native forces. I spoke

Waitman Beorn (16:54.19)
And so, yeah. OK, go on. ahead. Yeah.

Pastor Kai (17:16.634)
He spoke fluent English because we grew up with American soldiers that my parents had two apartments in the house, which we rented out to American servicemen. And so we, you know, I grew up with Americans. They took me to places and I spent a lot of time with them. spoke English. So military, the NATO forces, German NATO contingent sent me to Wales, Southwest Wales, Pembrokeshire, Castle Martin. There was a tank training range where we trained Leopard 2 tanks.

And I spent time there. so yeah, it took me out of Germany. And then after that, I studied hotel tourism management. then I got into hotel management. was first, I was in London at the Savoy Hotel. did a training there. I went to different hotels in the UK. And then eventually I made that move into Southeast Asia. I went to Hong Kong, Singapore, Thailand, Indonesia, China, all over the Far East, working for chains like West End Sheraton, know, Shangri-La.

in a Mandarin and so forth. And that was a successful young manager, Rolex, Golden AmEx, Mr. Cool, in love with myself. so eventually that was my lifestyle. I remember the way I lived was the cause justifies the means. I Machiavelli was my, I admired his ideologies, his writings, how to get things done, right?

And so that's how I managed my people. I was profit oriented, purpose driven. And so I got very sick. I remember it was like in 1986, I got really, really sick. I was in the hospital, I an operation and went wrong. got really sick after it, almost died. And that's when I found a Bible in the bedside cabinet. And I started reading that book in despair. And like I said, I didn't, it wasn't

I wasn't driven by trying to somehow atone for my grandfather's sin or something like that. No, I just read that book and it blew my mind. And I realized where I was in my life, how I saw people, how I saw my career, how I managed. And I realized, wow, if someone took me and put me in a sort of dictatorial political environment system.

Pastor Kai (19:38.608)
and someone told me, hey, you know, we're going to take you, we're going to bring you out, you know, we're going to take you to the top. You just going to do this, this and that. How would I have responded? Could have done similar things. And so I realized the mindset, sort of the rudimentary predisposition to do crazy stuff like that, to, I mean, it was there. And that's when my heart really changed. And obviously I stumbled across Psalm 51. That is something that

most amazing psalm in the Bible where King David, who was a man of God's own heart, where he desires this woman, he sees her having a bath, he desires her, he has her, she gets pregnant, then he gets rid of her husband, Uriah, an officer in his own army. He has him murdered by telling his generals to withdraw the forces from him when he is in the battlefield. And so he gets killed and then he takes her because, you know, Jewish law,

You marry a widow, that's an honorable thing to do. So he marries her and then the prophet comes and says, David, I want to tell you a story. There's a man with the most beautiful sheep in the land and a more powerful man comes and takes it away from him. How would you deal with that man? That's all he has and he takes it away from him. David goes, that man needs to be judged. Nathan says, you're that man. That's when King David breaks down and he's on his knees and he pleads with God and he asks for forgiveness.

He basically says, I'm a sinner, I've sinned against you, I have greatly sinned against you, what I've done is terrible. This is kind of how I saw it. I that I was a murderer or something like that. But I just realized the propensity was there, the predisposition was there, all I needed was the right stage. That is what actually showed me that I need to go in a different direction.

I need to see people through God's eyes. I need to see the world through God's eyes. And so the Bible became like my guiding principle in many ways. that, you know, as I got to know the Word of God better and I understood it more, I just grew more and more into this person that wanted to do the right thing, you know. And that brings me back, of course, to what my grandfather did. And I realized I need to tell people, I need to be outspoken about it.

Pastor Kai (21:58.494)
I want to gravitate towards those people and say, listen, for whatever it's worth, I just want to ask for forgiveness for what he did. And then of course, yeah, the next thing is the movie happens, right?

Waitman Beorn (22:11.416)
Well, mean, before that though, mean, cause there's a, there's a, a golf of time, right? From when you became a pastor and, sort of took up a religious, you know, profession. mean, did, did you do things, you know, before that? mean, did you, what was your first steps at sort of publicly or, or, or reaching out to other folks about this?

Pastor Kai (22:33.086)
Well, yeah.

Pastor Kai (22:37.342)
Well, the first thing that happened was, it was in Singapore 1989 after that episode in hospital that I, know, God made a lot of things happen then because I was back out of hospital, back in my old lifestyle, know, pumping weights, working hard, playing hard, going to the clubs, running around, enjoying life. And then I met this man who actually in a nightclub.

I didn't know he was there on an outreach from his church. so he invited me to meet his congregation. so, yeah, I think it was Easter on Easter time, 1989. And for people who are not Christians, they're not familiar with the terms, but that's when I really believed in Jesus Christ and I trusted him and I wanted to follow him. And they call it salvation by grace alone to faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. And that's...

what's the soul that, know, John 3.16, he gave his son, God gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life if you believe in him. And that's what I did. And so that's, again, that's when my life really took a turn. And then I met people along the way, know, people who taught me more, you know, about grace and love and forgiveness and kindness and how God sees us, even though we're all sinners, you know, none of us can say we're perfect. And yet,

He still loved us so much that he gave his only son to die on the cross for us. And the more I, and that realization kind of changed me more and more and more. And then I met my wife, I mean, I was a Christian, I was working in hotels and was continuing my career in different places. And I had two projects on the island of Bali, that's where I met my wife and we had our first children and so forth and so forth. I wasn't a pastor, but it was just plugging in more and more, understanding more and more and.

Waitman Beorn (24:04.544)
And, and sorry.

Pastor Kai (24:30.396)
And I met a lot of people along the way, Jewish people as well that I shared with. Of course, I didn't walk around with a big sign on my chest saying, I'm Rudolph's first grandson. But I didn't make it a secret. And I was no longer, in a sense, ashamed. I was ashamed for what he did. But I knew I had the power here to say something, to say, hey, listen, guys, look what happened in my life, how my life changed. And I wanted to tell you, I love you.

Waitman Beorn (24:39.062)
Right.

Pastor Kai (25:00.188)
I want to reach out to you and it's about reconciliation and it's about telling people the truth and so that that will never happen again. And I started doing that on a small scale with people I knew and I had some experiences with. I I remember giving, I was still working, I was in the pastor, was giving, I was invited to go down to some retreat for special forces, US special forces in Launders and the Vogues Mountains.

back in France, near the German, know, the Elsass-Lautriche. And I went there and there was like 250 Special Forces guys and they asked me to give a short sermon and also my testimony, who I was and where I came from, what my family background is. And this big man gets up in the very back of the room and he comes down the steps towards the speaker podium. And he just, you know, this, I mean, he's like a six foot six big, guy. And I was a little bit.

I said, what is this wrong with this guy? Why is he coming down here? Well, anyway, he gives me this big hug and he whispers in my ear and he says, you know, brother, I love you and I forgive you. My whole family was murdered in Auschwitz. So he was obviously a Jewish man. so somehow we never stayed in touch. But I had quite a few of these sort of turnkey experiences that emboldened me to tell people about it, because here we can have reconciliation, we can have forgiveness.

We can talk, have dialogue and then work together in educating and teaching that something like the Holocaust or anything that any racism or anything like that would never happen again or would not happen. the world needs it now more than ever, I think, when you consider what's going on right now. You see the fragmentation of human society, you see all this.

you know, polarization, political, religious, it's crazy what's going on. so that's really more and more became sort of an awareness in my heart that there's something I can do, especially on this, on that platform of who I am, my family legacy, which kind of gives me a unique platform. And I'm just a normal guy. I'm a pastor now, but I mean, it's something I can talk about and point in the right direction. So yeah.

Waitman Beorn (27:19.682)
Did you ever have any bad experiences in doing this? You people who, you know, didn't, I guess didn't take it well or said, you know, that you can't apologize for what your father or grandfather did or just general sort of negative feedback, I guess.

Pastor Kai (27:38.622)
Well, know, people, never, never that, but I had people tell me, look, you know, there's nothing you can do about it. I mean, you're not responsive. had Jewish people tell me they were almost like, you know, they said, hey, listen, wow, don't put that burden on you. This is not your fault. You know, you didn't do anything, but we appreciate what you're saying. But a negative, I never really had a negative. Obviously, there's people that disagree, you know, from a

you know, whatever religious perspective or something, you know, you have people out there, there's something called covenant theology. I don't know if you ever heard about that. It's like a sort of Calvinistic, a current within Calvinism that believe that, you know, they don't really get the fact that God is not done with Israel. And they kind of try and teach people that, and some people believe it, that God is finished with Israel. And so that the church has actually replaced Israel.

And if you read Romans chapter 11 and Romans chapter 6, 9, all the way through, you see the Old Testament, you see how God's children Israel are still here and the nation of Israel is still around. And so when you understand it correctly, you know that that is a lie. But these people out there, there are these people that disagree. And there's even actually Jewish people, mean, ethnic Jewish people in that camp.

who have very little regard for their own ethnicity in a sense of, you know, I'm Jewish, I could be anything, but I believe that. yeah, I mean, there's people in any country, any ethnicity that hate their own ethnicity or whatever, or, you know, I'm not really fond of it. So yeah, so I had that experience on a few occasions.

Waitman Beorn (29:19.406)
And was, and was your, was your, what was your father's reactions to when you started, started doing this? Um, you know, I guess around the family dinner table or whatever, you know, when you're talking, would he, was he engaged in it or, or what?

Pastor Kai (29:38.152)
Well, know, kind of have to clarify here. We didn't have the family dinner table. My parents got divorced. I was already with the military and no up abroad. And my parents had a very ugly divorce. My dad disappeared with his second wife. We had 40 years of radio silence where I did not have any contact with my dad. In fact, we came back to Germany in 2000 because the initial plan was for me to live in the United States. I had a job line up as a general manager in Kansas City, Missouri.

My wife didn't like the Midwest. She felt overwhelmed, you know, and she said, you know, honey, can we, can we, is there any other way? I mean, I could have said, no, that's where we going, but she's, I said, well, there's any other, one other option that's going back to Germany. So in May 2000, we came back here. And again, I mean, no contact with my dad. I tried to find him. you know, I was, I was at the point of getting the private investigator to find out, but that's expensive. So I didn't do that.

But anyhow, so was six years ago that the phone rings one night and it's my dad. I see that number on the phone. had no idea who it was. I said, hello? This is your dad. said, why have you been, man? All those years. So anyways, so that's how we reconnected. And then we talked, well, you know, I think his second marriage, I think at the age of like in the late 70s, 80s, they started.

Waitman Beorn (30:54.114)
Why do think he reached out when he did?

Pastor Kai (31:03.834)
having issues and his second wife, she moved back to her family and left him there. And I think he was lonely and he finally gave me a ring. I never held it against him. You know, I'm not that way. I wasn't, you know, vindictive and trying to get even said, you know, you left us and I'm on. I just I was just happy that he was back. And so we started talking, you know, and and he never and I mentioned to him, we talked about the Holocaust and actually he never denied it or embellished it or anything. It was just he just

His stance was, you know, this was so bad and it's done, it's finished. That's what we've always, that's kind of always what was said in our family, the narrative. It's done, there's nothing he can do to change it. So, but he was never a denier or pro whatever fascism. He wasn't a neo-Nazi or anything like that. It was just too much for him. I think he just wanted to keep it quiet and not have too much stress about it.

And there's a stigma, obviously they're scared. mean, I remember my dad, when he was a child, they told me stories he was spat upon in schools by other students, I mean, in Germany. That's why they moved far away from the north back down to southern Germany, here where we live, because less people knew them. And so he had some rough experiences with the German kids in school who found out who they were and then persecuted them as kids.

Waitman Beorn (32:12.6)
Mm-hmm.

Pastor Kai (32:27.042)
Obviously after the war everyone was so we were never Nazis, know people everyone's trying to distance themselves from from the collective, you know, so anyhow so and yeah, My dad was just a normal guy. He worked for Volvo all his life You know as a car salesman for you. had the you let the southern the German truck division here in southern Germany So for you know utility vehicles like trucks and all that. So yeah, it was a normal guy We never really talked much about it

until I invited him, I asked him whether he was willing to be part of this documentary.

Waitman Beorn (33:05.506)
Yeah, I mean, how did how did this come about? The documentary itself? Have you been approached? Were you approached before with people trying to get, you know, talk about about the the host family or was that the first time?

Pastor Kai (33:16.862)
Well, you know the Zone of Interest which actually came out, they got two Oscars. When that movie came out, people started calling me. They wanted to know. And at that time I couldn't say much because we had started filming the Commandant Shadow and they asked me to keep things under wraps until it was out and official and released. So when that started, you know, I...

Waitman Beorn (33:26.05)
Okay.

Pastor Kai (33:46.398)
It was it was Daniela Fulker, the director of the Comet and Shadow. She called me up, I remember, I don't know. And she just asked me, was four years, five years ago, and she said, you be willing, could you imagine being part of this documentary project? And I said, there are two conditions. First, the Holocaust is...

It's not embellished, it's rendered clearly and historically correct because it happened. And she said, yes. And I said, my second condition is I can talk about the one that broke the curse in my life and that's Jesus Christ. I can talk about my faith. And she said, absolutely. She said, this is a documentary, you can do that. And with that, I agreed. I consented to be part of this film project.

And that film, we filmed, mean, you know, and eventually it was done. It was released. And that's when people started really showing, I saw that more and more people, organizations, all kinds of Christian organizations, Jewish organizations, synagogues, know, Holocaust memorial societies around the world, private people.

Even the German Ministry of Political Education has contacted me and asked me whether I'd be interested in doing a nationwide project with them in schools. yeah, this whole thing has kind of, all this has mushroomed because of the film, people realizing who I am and wanted to know more like you yourself, like know more about it.

Waitman Beorn (35:31.286)
Yeah, I mean, going back to when the film was in the works, did you have to agree sort of with your father or I mean, what conversations did you have about it? obviously it's a big step to put yourself on screen. And it sounds like for your father, that was a big step too.

Pastor Kai (35:53.512)
Well, for me, wasn't a big step because it was something to do that was right. And to do what's right shouldn't be a big step. And then Daniela, that was a few weeks after I agreed, she calls me up again and she says, you know, we've had this idea, would you be able to check with your dad and see if he was willing to join as well and be part of this? So I call my dad and I mean, without hesitation, he said, yes, yes, I'll be part of this.

Waitman Beorn (35:57.89)
Yeah.

Pastor Kai (36:22.238)
Of course I explained to him what it was all about and he was on board right there.

Waitman Beorn (36:31.206)
Why do you think that change from his earlier sort of not wanting to be involved with it and kind of wanting to draw a line under it, what changed?

Pastor Kai (36:47.496)
think my dad, of course, over the years, he's also has, he discovered his faith and his conscience, his heart was sensitized to the plight, the suffering of God's people, of the Jewish people during the Holocaust. And so he actually had become a different person over the years.

It was no longer just shame and trying to stay away from it, but now he is at an age in his early 80s, I guess, where he just wanted to do something that was right. And Ami talked about it. I explained to him what the film is all about and what it's trying to accomplish in that, right, especially in this time of rising anti-Semitism and the rise of fascism and all these kind of things. We're now 80 years away, more or less.

There's been so much has been forgotten. know, the generations, the following generations, you how it is, it just becomes less and less prevalent. And it has less and less of an emotional impact on people's hearts. So it is forgotten, it erodes. And so he said he was absolutely, you know, was willing, happy to be part of it. So and there was no financial incentive for anything that we never there was never part of it. You know, it was just

purely to do the right thing. I mean, he's not that, you know, he's not that good on his, you know, strong on his legs anymore, but he did come along. went to London to the different screenings. He went to Berlin, he traveled. He went to the US, flew to the US to see his sister. It's all part of the documentary, the filming process. And so, yeah, he just, he wanted to get that done, you know, and he...

And he knew that's something he can leave behind to kind of set the record straight, at least from his perspective. And I think that was a good thing that he did that.

Waitman Beorn (38:47.224)
Were there parts that were difficult for him in the film?

Pastor Kai (38:52.676)
Absolutely. yeah. mean, you know, reading that book, know, Daniela, really, you know, she got him to read the book and his grandfather, yeah, his father's memoirs, the Commandant of Auschwitz. And, you know, you could see the reality dawning on him, who his dad really was and what he did.

Waitman Beorn (39:01.442)
The Rita, the host's memoir.

Pastor Kai (39:21.116)
And then of course in Auschwitz they showed him his dad's handwritten manuscript. I remember the museum curator there, he opened the box and he was wearing the white gloves and very carefully those pages, they're 80 years old, paper, so fragile. And he opened that box and he put it in front of us and this was his dad's handwriting.

And so and then of course standing there in Auschwitz at the gallows because those gallows are there and so he's there in his straw and his little walker just standing there and I could see tears. I see his tears welling up in his eyes because that's where his own dad was executed. So he made a major and you see that in the film. I mean I'm not trying to sort of know pluck the film but that film is it shows you the transition that he made.

from a distance and saying, yes, that happened and it was all bad, but there's nothing you can do about it. But it had taken on an emotional dimension in his heart that he had never experienced before. And that transition was for me beautiful to watch.

Waitman Beorn (40:33.847)
Did he visit, just out of curiosity, did he visit his former house at Auschwitz?

Pastor Kai (40:39.794)
Yes, we did. Yeah, of course. Yeah, we in a film you see that he remembered everything his living room is his kid to kids bedrooms and you know where he where they played and all the memories right for six seven year old boy. It was all there. I mean, a lot of it was there. So it was heart wrenching for him to I mean, you know, seeing all that rediscovering those memories and then realizing what was happening on the other side of the fence of the wall.

and how his father was the architect, one who put it all together, this massive extermination machine to kill, exterminate an entire race of people.

Waitman Beorn (41:22.26)
And when you went to Birkenau, that's one of the key parts of the film as well. You know, what was that like? Did you have a tour or how did you how did you?

Pastor Kai (41:33.246)
We went to Auschwitz. We didn't go to Birkenau. We went to Auschwitz.

Waitman Beorn (41:38.51)
Well, I was with Birkenau's

Pastor Kai (41:40.734)
Yeah, I know, but we that's the main camp there. Yes. And we had a tour. We filmed for a whole week there on the on the on the the actual site all over the place. So it was early morning. You know how it is filming. The lights got to be right and all that. So there were all the technical requirements. So and yeah, we spent the whole basically a whole week there.

Waitman Beorn (41:44.727)
Yeah.

Pastor Kai (42:04.76)
And we had someone there as a person who knew everything and they were explaining certain things, technical things to us and what happened in the processes and so forth. yeah, was, I spent this for me personally and I think for my dad too, was a very difficult week. I remember crying, sobbing several times, just seeing, just imagining, visualizing.

what it must have been like, you know, now of course it's a dead place, you know, it's been a place of death, but now it's kind of, but when you see the signs and you hear the guide giving us information and you visualize that just in the context of your own family, having children, having a family and realizing how they murdered little children, separated them from their parents, murdered pregnant women,

And then, you know, when I stood there and I just, in my, you know, my mental eye, I just saw this and I visualized it and it just broke my heart. just, I just, and even now when I think about it, it me goosebumps. It's terrible. You know, how he could have, you know, just put this together, you know, just design this thing and make it work and knowing exactly what was going on. There's just no.

For me personally, no excuse. There's nothing you can say to say, you know, I did this or I had to do this or I had no choice or no, there is no excuse. There is no justification at all.

Waitman Beorn (43:40.814)
Was that your first time at Auschwitz? Was going to Auschwitz something that you had thought about before?

Pastor Kai (43:43.24)
That was my first time, yes.

Pastor Kai (43:52.542)
Yes, several times, but of course I was living abroad and how it is just never really came together, but I have thought of it many times. Actually, they had several, there were opportunities in the past and some of it didn't happen.

Waitman Beorn (44:09.002)
And one of the key points of the film too is this discussions with the survivor, the Auschwitz survivor. Can you talk a little about what that was like for both you and your father, sort of having that interaction?

Pastor Kai (44:26.674)
Yeah, again, humbling and thankful that she actually that Anita Lasker-Walfish and her daughter, Maya Lasker-Walfish, that they invited us to come to their home, to Anita's home to meet her. It was a humbling experience. as Anita says herself, it was beautiful that we could actually sit together after all she suffered.

I had to suffer from the hands of my grandfather, Auschwitz, that camp he commanded and he was responsible for everything, for the standard operating procedures that were responsible of murdering so, so many people and that she would actually invite us. And her own family obviously suffered so much greatly.

with her siblings and parents and relatives being murdered there. And it was a very, actually a beautiful experience. And also in a sense, just realizing that we can, after all those years and after all that's happened, is this possibility of starting something new, even collaborating to an extent where we, because we...

We know one thing we have in common. We don't want to see this ever happen again. And to pool our resources and our experiences and our backgrounds, know, to have something good coming out of something so evil. I think that's, again, that's a biblical concept, you know, what man means for evil, God means for good. And he can turn it around and turn it into something absolutely beautiful and holy and just.

I think this is really what I'm hoping to do more and more to be out there and to give something back in whatever way I can to start this, to continue this process of reconciling and understanding and so forth.

Waitman Beorn (46:31.886)
And one of the things that we that we talked about earlier in our early conversation was the sort of that your father changed, even just doing the course of the filming that he sort of was on an arc. Can you talk a little bit a little bit about how you how you see him changing just from the experience of filming?

Pastor Kai (46:47.495)
Right.

Well, I think the greatest change that I witnessed in him was just realizing at the beginning his dad in his eyes, his father was a good dad, And he saw it like, you most boys will look up to their dad and revere their dad almost like, know, and then he found out more and more about who his dad was and what he did.

and something he never believed possible in the past. And then he saw it with his own eyes. He read the book. He read his own father's memoirs, what, you know, the things he wrote down. He confessed. And then he had, he reached that point where he said, yes, my dad, what he did was absolutely evil. And he received is just punishment for his, for his actions, for his crimes. And that was a big, I think a huge move for him and his heart, because just think about your dad.

I for a son to come to think of his own dad that way, it is not easy. But yet he owned up to it and he said, is wrong, it was evil and his execution was just. And I talked, of course, I talked with my dad afterwards, not just on the film set, but we had other conversations following and I noted he had really made that turn of.

Waitman Beorn (48:07.982)
I'm...

Pastor Kai (48:18.47)
recognizing who he was and that it was total evil and in a sense despising his father's actions, know, hating what he had done.

Waitman Beorn (48:29.378)
Have you had any conversations with descendants of other, of other perpetrators who have seen you do this sort of thing and reached out? I cause I, that's one of things I would wonder that, you know, that if there are other people, what you would say to family members of other, you know, I mean, both prominent and non-prominent. mean, what is the, what is there an obligation?

Pastor Kai (48:40.902)
No, no, no, no, I haven't.

Waitman Beorn (48:56.738)
for descendants of perpetrators to do this sort of work or.

Pastor Kai (49:04.296)
Well, I haven't really met anybody yet and I'm sure most likely, probably will eventually meet people. And I know there's probably a lot of people out there that, I mean, they still see their family and their legacy as something that was not that bad. They may be ashamed, they may be prevented from speaking out about it positively because of our current

understanding and politically there's and we're still in a time right now where mainstream it's still the Holocaust is called evil, recognized as such. But hey, there are people out there who would like to see that reversed. And I'm sure there is Holocaust perpetrator generations of descendants of Holocaust perpetrators who probably would like to see this change too.

like to have it appear in a more honorable light. And I think, I don't know, I haven't met anyone, but I know there's people here where they say, well, I mentioned earlier, who say it wasn't that bad. He was a good man. He made our country, we had national pride. We felt good about ourselves again after all that happened in the first world war and all the disgrace we had to suffer. hey, I don't know, but I haven't met anyone and I hope I will.

I think it also is probably hard to someone, descendant of a perpetrator who has gone through what I've been through, like with my faith, in understanding what Israel is, who they are, who the Jewish people are from a biblical perspective. Because at the end of the day, it comes down to that. mean, the whole conflict we're seeing, everything, it starts, it's biblical, it starts in the Bible. You can read the whole history of his people.

And they're still there. mean, you see the persecution of God's people from you go back to the the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians in the Greek and the Antiochus Epiphany. You go down through the Romans, the Germans. mean, there's and there's been many other diasporas and persecution era, you know, eras of persecution, events of God's people. And yet they're still there. There's still the promises to Abraham are still absolutely irrevocable. so.

Pastor Kai (51:25.554)
But again, most people today, we live in a post-Christian time. Most people don't care about that anymore. They think that's nonsense. We live in this post-modern humanistic relativistic time where everyone has his own ideas. so the absolute truth is totally disregarded today. There is no such thing as absolute truth, which I believe the Bible is. so, yeah, and that's the issue, I think. So I don't think there's...

many people out there that could relate to this on my plane and then come to that same conclusion. But I'm sure there are people out there, descendants of perpetrators who are equally heartbroken, who recognize that it was wrong without seeing the religious or the biblical side to it.

Waitman Beorn (52:18.188)
Right.

Pastor Kai (52:18.433)
and that just from a human perspective say this was absolutely wrong and what my grandfather did or my relative did was absolutely wrong and they're probably ashamed and many of them probably try and stay low-key, you know. They want to live just a normal life and not be associated with all that, I guess. And I think that's wrong. I think they should come out. They should talk about it.

They should voice that. Because we're, you know, I mean, actual Holocaust survivors. mean, the numbers are you. I think you mentioned that. I don't know how many are passing away every year. And in a few years, there won't be any left, any real eyewitnesses of what really happened. And so I think it's up. It's on us today and those the next generation to carry this forward. And I remember one of the headmasters there. I speak at different schools here in Germany. I have another.

appointment now coming up at the high school here. But the headmaster of this big vocational college and the dean, he said to me, said, know, said, Kai, we need to move this from the head to the heart. mean, Holocaust education, you know, even being mandatory in Germany, it's a good thing. And I'm not even, I'm not criticizing it. But if you convey information, if you transfer information, statistics, numbers, historical facts,

all great, right? You can cover with all the gory details. But in the end of the day, how do you move that knowledge from between your ears to your heart and where it starts change how you feel? Because when it comes down to it, unless it becomes an emotional reality, unless you have tears rolling down your cheeks about something or you're emotionally touched, it's not going to spur you on to actually actively get involved to change things. And, you know,

or you won't have that passion that's necessary to make it credible. any speaker, if you're up there and you speak into a crowd of people and you're just reeling off some information, unless they see that you're really passionately involved in this, that's what really, you know, what brings it home and it touches hearts, you know, and I think that's what needs to happen.

Waitman Beorn (54:30.452)
And where do you see this now, particularly in Germany with the AfD and the rise of literally sort of a Nazi descendant political party? Does it lend some urgency to what you're doing?

Pastor Kai (54:43.741)
Well...

Pastor Kai (54:47.294)
mean, I know Germany is a country now that's, we're multiracial, multicultural, multi-religious. I think the AfD, even if they wanted to, it's like you can't change what Germany is today. I'm not a politician, so I don't really know what these people exactly are up to. I know there are some people in there that embellish the Holocaust, that deny it, that...

which I think is absolutely wrong and they should not be in politics. They should not be allowed to speak up or to have even have a stage. I mean, that's how I feel about it. And like I said, I'm not a politician, but there's also, I I just don't know. I see all these political spectrums, whether it's on the extreme left or the extreme right, look at history. Each of them, all of them have been extremely destructive.

and hurting millions of people, whatever direction you go. And it's man-made. political ideology is away from God. It's man trying to fix things. And man's been trying to fix things for thousands of years. And look where we're at. We haven't fixed a thing because we have not fixed the intrinsic rudimentary nature of man, which is basically we're sinners.

And we're capable of doing a lot of good, but we're also capable of doing a lot of evil. And if anyone's honest about himself, the mind is a deceitful thing. And we have thoughts that are not pure and honest, that are aggressive and angry. All these things are there. you know, we're not going to change this planet because this planet, this humanity is made up of many, many individuals and we're all suffering from the same problem. We're sinful and we will always look out for our own.

power for our own self, our own advantage, for our own benefit. And that will not change, you know, and we're all driven by our own needs and greets and whatever that is, our own past, how we were conditioned as children, we carry baggage, which most likely we'll never share with anybody that influences us. And so this is a broken planet with broken with a broken race of people. And the only thing that will for me personally, my experience, and I'm not trying to bash anyone with the Bible.

Pastor Kai (57:09.072)
is we need forgiveness. And he offered that forgiveness on the cross when he died for the sins of all of mankind. And he said, Father, forgive them. I mean, when he allowed the creatures he made to nail him to that cross, he said, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. And that grace, that unmerited grace of that God showed us is possible. And I know it's been misconstrued and twisted and in the name of Christianity, a lot of bad things have happened over the years in religion. But when you look at the core, the core ten of the message.

It is clearly a message of grace and love and forgiveness and do not judge, but love. Right. And I think that's the kind of thing that's the kind of that's the message, the true biblical message I want to carry out to people and and try and change. know, and not everyone listens. Like I said, pride when the moment you add pride, national pride, social pride, whatever pride that is, family pride. You know, whenever whenever you add that, you have a toxic mix and we'll see that wherever you go.

Waitman Beorn (58:09.582)
Well, I mean, I think I'm really, I'm really happy that you took the time to sort of share your family story and your personal story with us on the podcast. It's, it's, it's, it's been really interesting to hear, you know, the way that you're processing this, but also the things that you're doing for outreach and those kinds of things. I want to close with the question that we always ask all of our guests, which is,

What is one book on the Holocaust that you might recommend to our listeners?

Pastor Kai (58:49.768)
read that. I'm not getting any money in this book. That is, know, all the proceeds go to Holocaust, you know, remembrance, but this Commandant of Auschwitz, would, if anyone, this is the book that broke my heart. I know there's many books out there, but that's one of the, yeah, other books I would read. I would definitely, and then of course, yeah, yeah, that's it.

Waitman Beorn (59:12.45)
Great. We'll put that on the website as one of recommendations. And again, for all the listeners, if you are finding the podcast interesting, engaging, please leave us a comment, a like, subscribe, all that good stuff. It really makes a great deal of difference. And also just lets me know that you're liking what we're putting out there. And again, Kai, thank you so much.

for coming on and thank you for sharing your perspectives.

Pastor Kai (59:44.702)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you.