Ep. 73- Babi Yar History and Memory with Victoria Khiterer

It was the largest open shooting of the Holocaust (and perhaps in history).  Yet the murder in Babi Yar of 33,000+ Jews and other victims remained for much of its postwar life, unmarked and uncommemorated, at least officially.

In this episode, I talked with VIctoria Khiterer about the fascinating history of Jews in Kyiv, before, during, and after the Holocaust.  It's an insightful look into challenge of Holocaust memory from the Soviet period to modern-day Ukraine.

Victoria Khiterer is a Professor of History at Millersville University.

Khiterer, Victoria. Bitter War of Memory: The Babyn Yar Massacre, Aftermath, and Commemoration (2025) 

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You can find a complete reading list with books by our guests and also their suggestions here.

Transcript

Waitman Beorn (00:00.831)
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Holocaust History Podcast. I'm your host, Whitman Bourne. And today we are talking about the Babi Yar Massacre for the second time, though the first time was with Shai Pillnick talking about the literature. But now we're going to talk about the actual historical event itself, as well as the struggle over the memory of the event in the Soviet Union and actually to modern day Ukraine as well.

And with me is Victoria Heater, who has written an amazing book on precisely this topic and is one of the best people to talk about this. so, Victoria, thank you so much for coming on.

Victoria Khiterer (00:43.544)
Thank you very much for inviting me and thank you very much for your kind words about my book.

Waitman Beorn (00:49.759)
Can we just start by maybe you talk a little bit about how did you get interested in this particular topic? What is your what is your connection to it?

Victoria Khiterer (00:58.574)
was born and grew up in Kiev, Ukraine, then Soviet Union still. And I faced in my childhood lots of antisemitism in one hand, and in another hand, I heard family stories how my grandmother and my then two years old mother by miracle escaped from Kiev.

when Nazis were already on outskirts of the city. And basically, probably these two things overlap together and I developed my interest into the history of the Jews in Kiev and the most tragic page of this history, Baben Yar Massacre.

Waitman Beorn (01:44.799)
Great. And you bring a lot of that to the book. I mean, can really tell, that you have a great insight into this particular city and to the history, but also to the history of the event. Can you talk a little about, just in the beginning, an introduction to to Kyiv in the sort of early 20th century, right? So what is it like? What is the Jewish community there like? Characterize a little bit for us.

Victoria Khiterer (02:14.312)
I wrote another book before my book, a bit of memory that calls Jewish city or inferno of Russian Israel, the history of Jews in Kiev before revolution 1970. And then I wrote a book about Jewish pogroms in Kiev during the civil war. So Jewish community in Kiev before revolution was about

Waitman Beorn (02:35.519)
you

Victoria Khiterer (02:41.101)
80-87 thousand Jews in Kiev was exempt from bail of Jewish settlement. But only Jews with higher education, university or gymnasium education, or those who were merchants of first second guilds, or some categories of artisans, but not all artisans, were allowed to live in Kiev. Jews always

want to settle in the city and first settlements are appeared still in 10th century of common era, but unfortunately different authorities that rule the city during the history. mean Russian authorities, Polish because some period of time cave belong to Republic of Poland or Reczpospolita.

expelled Jews and Ukrainian authorities. It was only large city in the region. Conditions of life were especially in late 19th, beginning of 20th century, more modern. Jews pressed hard to live in the city and they were continuously expelled.

Finally, in 1917, after February Revolution, the Pell of Settlement was abolished. And then we can say that Jewish population within short period of time, 28 years of interwar period, tripled, not just doubled, but tripled, and becomes the second by size of Jewish population in the Soviet Union.

larger population was in Moscow, but in Leningrad was less Jews than in Kiev. And there was period of time in 1920s, beginning of 1930s, when many Jewish schools, also Jewish scholarly institutions and Jewish press all exist in Kiev and flourished.

Victoria Khiterer (05:03.382)
because then Soviet authorities provide policy of colonization of population and they encourage national minorities to develop culture or national language. In case of Jews, it was very limited. We can say choice of language because only Yiddish was allowed in Soviet Union. Hebrew was forbidden as a language of

Klorgyi and bourgeoisie and Zionist language. But if people want to develop their culture or are interested in culture in Yiddish, they receive support and funds from the state. However, this policy of colonization continued only until mid-1930s. And already in 1936, the...

Institute of Jewish Proletarian Culture was closed and people who work in this institute become victims of Stalin repressions. They were accused in Trotskyism, Zionism, all other ridiculous accusations and director of this institute, Joseph Liberberg was executed and

several other members of this institute received long term imprisonment. Total victims of Stalin's repression become 20 people who work in the Institute of Jewish Proletarian Culture of 100 people who work there. After liquidation of this institute, still exists some much smaller

Jewish scholarly institution, so-called Department of Jewish Culture, but their work only 11 people, so those who survived Stalin repressions. This institution also was closed after World War II. But Jews feel in Kiev that

Victoria Khiterer (07:18.893)
Their city was a total feeling for many memoirs in 1920s, 1930s. What means their city? They have a Jewish district, Podol now in Ukrainian, called Spadil, where people spoke on the street in Yiddish.

There was more possibility to find people who speak in Yiddish than any other language of the city, because Kiev always was a multinational city. There Russian people, Ukrainian people, Polish people, Jewish people. But Jews made then 27 % of the population of the city. So every fourth person in Kiev was Jewish before World War II.

Waitman Beorn (08:08.291)
And how many, how many was that on the eve of World War II? How many?

Victoria Khiterer (08:08.552)
Unfortunately

Victoria Khiterer (08:12.525)
One very good question. 224,000 Jews live in Kiev by census of population 1939. as I said, more live only in Moscow. Leningrad have few thousand less than Kiev. And it's not surprising because Kiev by...

Waitman Beorn (08:18.643)
Wow.

Victoria Khiterer (08:36.903)
words of Jewish historian Dubnov was in heart of the pale of settlement. It was insocated by this pale. And when pale was removed, the people from the small towns and shtetls, while they had a hard time to receive education or find some jobs or meaning of life, they

moved to Kiev. yes, two-thirds of Jews who lived in Kiev before World War II were newcomers. Only one-third lived from pre-revolutionary times, but two-thirds came in 1920s, 1930s to Kiev.

Waitman Beorn (09:14.505)
Well, I mean, that's I just have to I mean, it's an amazing number, really. I because I just I just finished a book that deals partially with the VIVA. And of course, they had one hundred and sixty thousand, which was the the third largest Jewish population in Poland at the time. But of course, it's you know, it's it's what's interesting, of course. And again, this is an aside. But when you're talking about the the interwar period, of course, one of the main distinctions between Lviv and Kiev is that, you know, Kiev is always Soviet.

And so, you know, it has a much different sort of arc of development than Lviv, which is Polish and then occupied very briefly by the Soviets. Right. And, you know, there's a. are different kinds of sort of histories of oppression, ones you've you've mentioned here in terms of, know, the Soviet state, which I think one of the things interesting and it's always interesting for our listeners is the Soviet state on the one hand offers opportunities to Jews.

that are not available in other places, but only if you're sort of the right kind. You know, if you're not, if you're, if you're in any way sort of against the regime, then, you know, it, it victimizes you just along with everyone else. And I'm curious because you mentioned, before we get into World War II, you know, there's this moment where the Soviet Union is interested in, in sort of minorities.

even though it's sort of as an ideology, it's against nationalism per se, but there's a period where it sort of cultivates, as you say, Ukrainianization or Yiddish, but then it changes. What causes this change to sort of repression of all minorities and that everyone becomes a Soviet?

Victoria Khiterer (11:05.533)
Very good question. So first Soviet regime did not feel probably very confident on so-called national streets. Even was expression on Jewish streets, on some other streets. And they tried to take national minorities on their side by spreading communist propaganda on national languages of these minorities. And then they support existence of national

sections of Communist Party like Jewish section and some other sections and this policy was provided during 1920s, first half of 1930s. then Stalin reached the limits of his power and he started to different course for Russification of all population because he feel that he has total control

he doesn't need really support or loyalty of this minority that he can control them anyway. And then repeated features of Russian Empire that stated Russian national ideology that like one empire, one language and one religion. In case of communism

Communism was itself a new religion that promoted Soviet authorities.

Waitman Beorn (12:33.011)
And then, and then of course, one of the major events of the 1930s that I think is important to talk about is of course, the whole of tomorrow, right? Which is the, I'll let you tell it. What very briefly, you know, what is the whole of tomorrow? And more importantly, you know, what does it affect on Keeve as well as its effect on relations between Jews and Gentiles in the city?

Victoria Khiterer (13:00.174)
Thank you very much. Yes, it's a very important question. First of all, I would like to say that the Holodomor was a terrible crime of Soviet regime. No doubt that it was intentional policy and it was provided to suppress resistance to collectivization. It was more harsh in Ukraine because Ukrainian farmers

were many of them middle class or even wealthy farmers and they resist more bitterly. There are some statistics that show hundreds of uprisings against collectivization, against Soviet regime. Sometimes they killed Soviet activists that were sent to rural area. And Stalin decided to punish the Ukrainian population for this resistance.

But punishing the Ukrainian population, he punished all people who lived in Ukraine. Because Jewish people who live either in cities like Kiev, Kharkiv, Lviv, sorry Lviv was not part of Soviet Union, but Kiev, Kharkiv, Odessa,

or those who live in small towns like my grandmother live in Bila Tserkva near Kiev and many other towns Skvira and so on they suffer tremendously from a halodomor. Why? Because they depend upon

food that brought to the market peasants and peasants could not bring anything to market because everything was confiscated from them and they themselves perished from famine. And with all of this Stalin continued to confiscate grain from Ukrainian peasants. it would not be a confiscation, would not be this famine at all. And

Victoria Khiterer (15:10.1)
reports from the places that were sent by local authorities that there are people swollen from famine, people dying from famine, did not stop Stalin from exporting grain abroad because he needed money for industrialization. I mean, Soviet government did not care how many people died and probably

They keep in mind that the more died, the less resistance they met in the future. So, in Kiev also was famine. And bread was distributed by vouchers, by very small amount per day. We can compare it with a blockade of Leningrad during World War II by Nazis. Because...

The normal bread for many people was equally small, just a quarter of a pound of bread per day and basically no other food. The workers who work on industrial plants receive a little bit more for themselves, like half a pound of bread per day. But not women, many women were still housewives or children or elderly people.

So famine was horrible and affected absolutely all population independent upon nationalities who live in Ukraine. Because this region have the highest norms of confiscation of bread among other, we can say, locations of Soviet Union.

Waitman Beorn (16:51.709)
And so, yeah, I'm sorry. So and so how does this affect the relationship between Jews and Gentiles in the city itself?

Victoria Khiterer (17:03.518)
I can say it very badly affected this relation because still before Holodomor some deco-cised peasants moved to the cities that lost everything, that everything was confiscated from them.

they blame in these Soviet authorities. They knew that there is Kaghanovich in Soviet government and you know it enough have one Jew in some high positions that they blame all Jews that they guilty in Holodomor and so on. Furthermore, people who lost everything and came to the towns or cities

feel that local populations that have some room in communal apartments have already privilege over them. it was a very, very difficult and very bad situation. Furthermore, some who came to the cities in hope to find at least some provision, at least a piece of bread, were dying on the street.

see how it demoralized local populations that starving themselves cannot help to so-called school was forbidden. My maternal grandmother told my mother that she remember how swollen people lie down in downtown cave but it was nothing to give to them because then she already had a small child, older sister of my grandmother.

And she was housewife and basically the bread that received my grandfather on the work was barely enough for them that don't die from starvation. They could not help. And they could not, some people ask me naively why they did not share with them apartments. So I said people did not have them in Soviet Union apartments in majority. They live in one room, in communal apartment. And how they can bring anybody.

Victoria Khiterer (19:15.477)
Furthermore, another problem is that police persecuted people who help so-called class enemies, how they call collages. So to even provide probably a piece of bread or potato for these dying people can be considered a crime if somebody denounces you and you then face some persecution for helping class enemies.

Waitman Beorn (19:43.453)
And so we have, we have this really sort of awful moment in the thirties and then, you know, we have the invasion, in 1941. can, can you then sort of paint the picture of, what happens? Because one of the things that I think is beyond the, the size, the scale of the Babi are, or the initial Babi are massacre is how quickly, you know, it takes place after occupation. You know, this is not something that

sort of builds and develops over time. It's very, very quickly. can you sort of tell us how the initial massacre, and I think our listeners will understand why I'm saying the initial because there are multiple killings take place there, but the major one, I suppose, that we'll talk about between September 28th and 29th.

Victoria Khiterer (20:32.137)
Thank you very much for your question. First of all, Helada Moore and Stalin's repressions prepared ground for this large massacre. Why? Because people got used to be silent. People got used to, even if they saw persecution against neighbors, don't say anything to save their life.

Nazi count on this and Nazi count on antisemitic sentiment among population because yes unfortunately we can say Jews still were not very well integrated in the society and the reason that they were not very well integrated because society not accepted

There was lots of prejudice against Jews, of Judaism, anti-Semitism, religious hatred, other hate for some economic, political reasons. So, Nazi count on this.

preparing this massacre they wrote in their report that they don't anticipate any protest among the population and after the they again wrote in the report and that group and that

The remained silent. There was no protest among population against the execution of Jews. Furthermore, they wrote that some part of population cheered for them, because they finally got rid of all the Jews that they so much hate.

Waitman Beorn (22:15.573)
And so how does this unfold and why do the Nazis carry out this? the Babi Yar has the distinction of being the largest open air mass shooting of the Holocaust. Thirty three thousand some people murdered in two days. Why does it unfold that way?

Victoria Khiterer (22:34.766)
Yes, Kiev was first large European city where instead creation of ghettos or concentration camps Nazi decided basically right away exterminate all Jews. Why? Because probably they did not want spend any time or funds for creation of ghettos.

and because they did not anticipate any protest from population in Western Europe and even in Germany itself, the were much more cautious about what will be the reaction of the local population if there will be some protest. Can we just kill Jews on the outskirts of some city without protest of population?

But they absolutely did not worry about this in Kiev. Furthermore, the Nazis provided some justification for this murder, like Jewish members of underground exploded main street in Kiev. Really, they did not catch any members of underground.

Soviet troops who retreat from the city leave radio explosive materials that explode on September 24th, Krishchatyk Street downtown cave, where during this explosion perished we can say hundreds of Nazis. And Nazis could not catch real

we can say underground members at this point, but they decided to all Jews. So Jews in this case also used escape boats that they showed that they found somebody and punished. But they punished women, children, elderly people because healthy adult Jewish men were on the front.

Victoria Khiterer (24:50.39)
In Kiev, if there was some men, was men with some severe disabilities, because Soviets mobilized to front basically everybody whom they could mobilize.

Of course, it's we can say, explanation, not explanation for this massacre, but the document shows that it was prepared in advance. In advance, were sent in a group to Kiev and everything was carefully planned, a special place for execution. was Babi Yar Ravyn, because it was a natural...

pit sent career that was quite huge and they even don't need prepare for Jews graves and everything was basically planned from the moment that Nazi occupied Kiev and they occupied Kiev on September 19, Massacre was on 29 and a few days before massacre already appeared this leaflets that they need to

print that all Jews should come to the district that was close to Baben Yar. Jews were misled by this announcement because also nearby was a railway station and the intentionally spread the rumors that Jews will be resettled somewhere from Kiev.

and they told Jews to all valuable belongings with them and probably Jews think that they would be deported to some ghetto or somewhere else from Kiev. They didn't know where they were going. Instead they took to train stations. They redirected all this flood of people, many thousands of people, to Babi Yar Ravine.

Victoria Khiterer (26:58.687)
they executed the Jews on September 29-30. But as a road historian Berkov and also show archival documents, the massacre continued at least until October 5th, because they searched for hidden Jews, they continued to deliver with local policemen these hidden Jews to Baben Yar. And then...

Two years of occupation every Tuesday and Friday they continuously executed and baby yard people.

Some were hidden Jews, some were prisoners of concentration camps that they created in Kiev. There were executed Roma, mentally ill people, some Ukrainian nationalists that pushed too much to Ukrainian independence and the Nazis came to occupy this land, not give Ukrainian people independence. even some Orthodox

priests that protested against execution of Jews in Bab-en-Yar. So many different categories of people were executed there, but first two days they exclusively killed Jews and in difference from other ethnic groups.

Only Jews and Roma were totally exterminated. Everybody home Nazi found was exterminated. Including babies and adult people and elderly people. And majority victims of this massacre, as I mentioned, were women, children and elderly people because healthy adult men were in the Red Army on the front at this time.

Waitman Beorn (28:52.741)
and this is fascinating to the there's so many really interesting things that you talk about. And I'm curious, because this is something that I hadn't, I hadn't heard about. If we think about what is the. What is the reaction responsibility of local non-Jews in their relationships with Jews during the Holocaust? And you talk about one thing to talk about is the podi program. And I'm curious if you can sort of talk a little about how the Ukrainians.

interacted with their Jewish neighbors during this period.

Victoria Khiterer (29:27.927)
Thank you for your question. Of course, quite painful question because if not local denunciations from the neighbors, probably significantly more Jews survived. Nazis when occupied Kiev from first days demonstrate their hostility to Jews and in some cases killed Jews on the streets.

Karl Berkow wrote that the first murder of Jews already started on 27th of September. many Jews who remained in Kiev very quickly realized that nothing good you can anticipate from Nazis. And they did not follow Nazi order to come to Baben Yar. They hide, they...

pretend that they are they pretend that they are Russians, Ukrainians and so on.

neighbors usually who denounced them and some who served in police even personally delivered Jews to Baben Yar and in parallel with Baben Yar massacre in Jewish district Padil was a Jewish pogrom by own initiative local non-Jewish population

look for hidden Jews and either killed them on the spot or tortured them or just hand them to the Nazis. And after liberation of Kiev, three most active pogrom makers who

Victoria Khiterer (31:23.117)
were personally guilty and murder of Jews, were taken to court and by decision of court they were executed in January 1944. But Soviets did not want to show that hundreds of people participate in pogrom, not only three people. They chose three people because the three people had criminal past.

They said this is an anti-social element, anti-Soviet element, so they did not emphasize their rabid anti-Semitism. They represented rather anti-Soviet behavior. Witnesses testified, witnesses of the Jewish pogroms, that there was crowd of at least 200 people.

and other people did not receive any punishment or even was not persecuted for stealing Jewish property for participation in pogrom. Furthermore, this pogrom participate even children because adult antisemites involve children 10 years old and older.

to help them kill Jews. Before they killed Jews, they tortured them, they put them alive in pit and teach children how to stones at them, how to kill them. And they found basically valuable anti-Semitic education for their children. So, of course, neither the children nor their parents were taken to the court or faced any...

charges for participation in this Jewish pogrom. Again, I remind that it was same days when in Babi Niyar still continued massacres. It was September 30th and October 1st, 1941.

Waitman Beorn (33:21.321)
Well, and this is and this is also a good segue because I do want to talk about the post war period and because one of the themes that runs through both your book and the history of of Bobby are at least from the Soviet perspective is this this challenging question. I mean, I'm using I'm using scare quotes here of, know, is Bobby are a site of Jewish suffering?

Or is it a site of quote, Soviet suffering or suffering of the Soviet Union or of a more universal sense? Right. and so a lot of the things we'll talk about, I think moving forward is kind of the ways in which, the fact that Bobby R is predominantly though there were lots of other groups that were murdered there. is overwhelmingly a place where Jews were murdered is, is something that is contested right during this post-war period.

and before we sort of get into that, can you talk really quickly about what happens in the immediate post war? You know, Jews coming back to Keefe, and then beginning to attempt to interact with, with Bobby art as I'm now, now as a, as a grave site slash potential memorial site.

Victoria Khiterer (34:41.454)
I think it's very symbolic that Holocaust of Jews in Kiev was accomplished by pogroms of local population. And we can say after end of Holocaust still was pogrom of Jews in Kiev in September 1945. And the reason for this

was rabid anti-Semitism and bitterness that the Jews survived, some Jews survived, and reluctance to return Jews their apartments and Jewish property. Such was the reaction of

we can say a good part of a Gentile population. I don't want to blame all Gentiles because among Gentiles also righteousness of the people. unfortunately, by my calculation, for one righteous person was a hundred people who denounced Jews or participate in a massacre even of Jews.

This was a big problem, this is why so few Jews survive in Kiev. The reason for this particular pogrom in September 1945 was that

two anti-Semites beat on the street Jews and among Jews that they beat on the street was some lieutenant of NKVD, secret police, but he was not like we think about NKVD that they all interrogators or something. He was a radio technician, but because he worked in NKVD he had a pistol and

Victoria Khiterer (36:29.581)
He returned home, took his pistol and he came back where he probably saw the left of the Sante Semites and he wanted to deliver them to police station. But they refused to go and continued to insult him and he lost control and shot and killed them.

The funeral of these antisemites turned to a Jewish pogrom in Kiev. On the way of funeral procession, the crowd beat Jews, five Jews by other calculation, 16 Jews were killed in this pogrom. Actually, I don't see the contradiction because official reports said that first day,

died or were killed five Jews, but still a hundred Jews were wounded and hospitalized. So we can say that another eleven may died from wounds that they receive in hospitals a few days later.

And authorities actually tried to stop this pogrom. They sent police, they sent troops, and pogrom was stopped. If authorities did not take measures, this violence would take even a larger dimension. In this way, it was only in one district of the city, but it can easily spread to entire city if a measure would not be taken.

And then MGB, again, secret police reported that there are prep-agroms in the city, that local gentile population poisoned by Nazi propaganda and really hate Jews and don't want to return them any property and so on.

Victoria Khiterer (38:27.86)
I can say Nazi propaganda really played a because Kiev was two years and two months under occupation. during occupation, Nazi published anti-Semitic newsletters in Ukrainian language. And of course, they did that with collaboration with local anti-Semites. And they also organized so-called in Kiev Museum of Transitional Period.

And this museum shows the whole Soviet period as a dominance of Jews, that of course was a lie, the Jews responsible in everything, in Holodomor, in Stalin repressions, in the poverty of population. And this propaganda definitely affected the local population. But we can say that this propaganda already came to fertile ground before...

Revolution in Kiev was the strongest anti-Semitism, Judo-phobia in the Russian Empire. And during civil war there were several Jewish pogroms, and plus Nazi propaganda, plus apartment crisis in ruined Kiev after World War II. Everything overlapped together, and as a result was explosion as a Jewish pogrom, and after pogrom...

still was often violence on the streets against Jews. Many memoirs wrote that Jews were often beaten on the streets, public transportation, in parks, basically everywhere. Jewish children were humiliated at schools.

My mother, that returned from evacuation to Kiev when she just seven years old, remembers that some boys that were much older than her, she was seven, and they were like 15, 16.

Victoria Khiterer (40:28.487)
set a dog at her and said to German shepherd that a lot remind how Nazi behaved during the war. Take it, take it. So she remembers that she came from school to home all in tears and afraid basically step out from her house because there were very anti-Semitic teenagers that anytime can...

tell a dog to take a eat. She said actually that this dog was probably more kind than these people. And he just barked at her, but did not kill her. Don't do anything horrible. But she remember fear. She now 86, but she still remember fear when she was seven years old when she was her parents returned to ruined cave and they settled in some basement.

how local children treated her.

Waitman Beorn (41:31.817)
Well, and this, leads us then into sort of something that's actually quite interesting is that, you know, again, I only have, I only have Lviv to compare with, know, but here in Lviv, had a city of approximately 160,000 Jews of whom a very, very, very small number returned after the war. but in Kiev, you have a, significant Jewish community that, that returns slash exists in the Soviet period.

and therefore is interested in memorializing and commemorating the Babi Yar massacre at the site of the Babi Yar massacre. So can you talk about a little bit about the challenges of that and what the Soviet attitude towards the Babi Yar massacre site is in terms of memorialization and commemoration?

Victoria Khiterer (42:26.206)
Yes, Jews who returned from evacuation to Kiev or from the front all have lost either their relatives or friends or neighbors in Baben Yar. It was a very big trauma for these people. Many families lost their members of older generation because

evacuation was possible only for people who work on some military plants or some factories that Soviet evacuated, but nobody evacuated pensioners. And many families lost elderly members. So Jews came to first...

unauthorized meeting in Babi Yar as early as 1944 on the third anniversary of Babi Yar massacre. was liberated in November 1943 and in 1944 Jews already organized their unauthorized meeting.

And what is interesting that Soviet authorities and personally Nikita Khrushchev, who before the war was first secretary of Communist Party of Ukraine and after the war again become the first secretary of Communist Party of Ukraine, during the war he was in army as political commissar. So he

personally came to Babinyar and promised that there will be a monument and Soviets provide even funds for construction of this monument but monument never was built. Why? Because

Victoria Khiterer (44:16.201)
rabbit antisemitism of local population Soviet authorities saw pogrom of 1945 in Kiev in September they saw pre pogrom situation in 1944 and later so they were afraid how local gentile population will react if they build their monument actually originally plan was built museum

with some bar relief that is supposed to this building surface monument and inside building should be museum. But was even project of model of this museum and photographs of this museum in my book model of this museum but it never was built. Soon

in late 1940s start anti-Semitic state anti-Semitic campaign then any talk about any commemoration of Jews become absolutely impossible in Soviet Union during late Stalin years and so continue until death of Stalin. During political soul under Khrushchev after

20th Congress of Communist Party in 1956. Many liberals tried to push in one or other way for construction of some monument in Baben Yar. Ilya Arenburg, a famous Russian Soviet writer personally wrote to Khrushchev that

necessary to build monument in Babin Yar and Khrushchev replied him that write your novels and don't put like your nose in political affairs. It's political affair and it's not your business.

Victoria Khiterer (46:20.814)
Viktor Nikrasov, a famous Soviet writer who received a Stalin award for his book in trenches of Stalingrad in 1959 published a essay why it was not done about why no monument in Baben Yar

There are no Jews in this essay. I'm wondering if censorship removes this word or it was self-censorship of Viktor Nikrasov. But he said that it must grave and there are no memorial plaques, no monument, nothing. Furthermore, Soviet authorities decide to build there some recreation, amusement park.

And Nikrasov protested against this project to build their stadium and park because he said it must be grave. You cannot make recreation for people on bones of many tens of thousands of people who executed there. However, Soviet authorities continue with their plan.

put their pulp from brick factories to level Babi Yar and then they plan to build a road, park and stadium. And this brought to new tragedy because the dump that keeps this pulp from brick factories was broken on March 13, 1961.

And this mud wave that went to nearby districts of the city killed by different calculations from 150,000 official reports and by rumors there were 1,500 people killed by this mud wave. And in September 1961, Yevtushenko came to Kiev.

Victoria Khiterer (48:35.745)
Anatoly Kuznetsov, Soviet writer who knew Yevtushenko from previous meetings brought him to Baben Yar. And Yevtushenko was shocked what he saw because Soviets then turned Baben Yar after this mudslide, after this tragedy to Chesapeake. He saw truck after truck that delivers garbage.

and thrown to the pit before Nazi executed by different calculations from 33,700 to 100,000 people. And he wrote that he was shocked. He anticipated to see there, if not monument, at least some memorial plaque, at least something, but not chest pit.

and he wrote after this visit of Baben Yar overnight his famous poem Baben Yar and he read it first time in Kiev when it still was not published. Then he returned to Moscow and the editor of Literaturna Gazeta, Literature newspaper took the risk because it was very risky without

authorization of higher authorities to publish this poem. And this was like explosion because then a poem was denounced by Nikita Khrushchev that don't need to divide our dead people by nationalities but simultaneously poem was translated in 70 languages.

Not everybody subscribes to the literature newspaper, though it was published in many thousands of copies. But people rewrite by hand this poem. Actually, I first time read this poem that was rewritten by my mother by hand in some notebook. And she kept it at home, this notebook with this poem of Ivtushenko. Basically...

Victoria Khiterer (50:54.797)
every Jewish family probably had either a newspaper or a handwritten poem of Ivtushenka at their home possession. then Babinyar becomes symbol of Holocaust in the Soviet Union as one of the largest massacres on Soviet territory and also as a that Soviets refused to build a monument.

and a few years later start unauthorized meetings of Jewish activists at Baben Yar. And what is interesting is that some of these activists said that really how they first learned about Baben Yar from the poem of Iv Tushenka. Because Soviets silenced any knowledge about Holocaust. Even the term Holocaust they did not use at all.

Instead, Holocaust of Jews said Soviet citizens or Kievans. yes, this was a great achievement of Yiftushenko that he wrote his poem about Jews, not just abstract, like why no monument in Babi Yar, there are so many people. He wrote this poem about Jews and about anti-Semitism.

in the Russian Empire and in Soviet Union, and he also mentions the Dreyfus affair in France, basically, raised a problem of anti-Semitism in his poem. I devote my book to memory of Evgeny Evtushenko, whom I knew personally. I before organized Holocaust conferences at Millersville University, and in 2010, by my...

invitation, Evgeny Tushenko came to Millersville University and he talked about creation of his poem Babi Yar and he read his poem here. And I believe that he was a very courageous man because he knew that even say something positive about Jews, even raise question about anti-Semitism, very dangerous in Soviet Union.

Victoria Khiterer (53:12.669)
and he took this risk and he was the first who published in Russian language such a poem.

Waitman Beorn (53:21.299)
I mean, it was really interesting. One of the things that that you raise repeatedly in the Soviet period are these groups of of Jewish Soviets who continue to go to Babi Yar and knowing that the KGB are there and that they risk, you know, being imprisoned and being arrested and otherwise repressed. mean, it's really remarkable that you have these people that continue to organize these events.

And and and to try to subvert them in various ways. mean, one of the one of the examples you give that I thought was really powerful was that the you know, the the star of David was considered by the Soviets to be a sort of bourgeois Zionist symbol of, you know, nationalist Jewish Israel or whatever. And it was it was essentially outlawed. But the two two activists had created wreaths in the shape of a triangle and they brought them to the memorial. And then at the last minute,

You know, they put them together opposite each other to create a Star of David, which I thought was fascinating. mean, what motivated these people to continue to risk imprisonment and worse to to have these memorializations at a place that didn't have a memorial?

Victoria Khiterer (54:42.93)
Very good question. I believe that this generation of Jewish activists mostly was born just either before the war or after the war. So they could not really remember people who perished in Babi Yar because they were too young to remember them. But

It was generation of the 1960s. And first, they truly believed that during the political soul they can change something in Soviet Union. They can develop again some Jewish institutions, Jewish cultural life, can commemorate victims of Holocaust. What is interesting is that Emmanuel Diamant, who organized the first meeting in Baben Yar,

first tried to revive some Jewish life in Kyiv. He tried to organize Jewish theater in Kyiv that authorities did not allow him. So he looked for expression of his Jewishness. And then he read poetry of Ivtushenko that he said that he not so much like this poetry, but...

whether you like poetry or not, it really raises to your mind a question. Why no monument in Babi Yar? Poetry starts with words no monument over Babi Yar. And he first came there with his fiancé and he found there bones of people over the ground because

Soviets after this flood even did not

Victoria Khiterer (56:37.741)
to cover his bones. First he tried with his fiance pick up his bones, somehow buried his bones and then he started to appeal to authorities about the monument and no response. And then he started to appeal to other people, to his friends, Jewish and non-Jewish friends and to Viktor Nikrasov that we need to the monument, we need to organize a meeting. And first meeting there was

On September 24, 1966, 25th anniversary of Baben Yad, when this Jewish youth in Kiev wrote, remember six millions, six millions of Holocaust tragedy, and put this...

poster with a sign over the wall of a Jewish cemetery in Kiev near Babi Yar, in vicinity basically of Babi Yar. And then there came Nikrasov and they decided to organize a larger meeting on 29. It came by different calculations from 500 people to 2000 people. KGB reported 500 people, but Jewish activists said that there was significantly more people, just KGB.

try to downplay how many people come there. And there came not only Jewish people, but also liberal intellectuals that were in Kiev. It were Russians and Ukrainians, for example, Viktor Nikrasov, Ivan Dzuba. Dzuba was Ukrainian dissident, Nikrasov was Russian Soviet writer, and they support

Jewish effort to build their monument. And when KGB later called Nikrasov for interrogation and said, why you organize this unauthorized meeting in Baben Yar, Nikrasov called many of his friends to come there. Nikrasov said, we did.

Victoria Khiterer (58:48.972)
What supposed do you authorities, because you did not do anything for 25 years after tragedy, we came there and we organized this commemoration meeting and we want to their monument. And what is amazing is that think that Soviet authorities did not listen much people, but two weeks.

After this meeting, as wrote Mikhrasov in his memoirs, memorial stone was placed in Baben Yar that promised, it was basically a stone marker, that on this place will be erected a monument to victims of Baben Yar tragedy. They again don't say Jewish victims, but to victims of Baben Yar tragedy, to Kayvans.

And in 1976, still it took from 66, 10 years later, finally Soviet monument was erected there. And even though that was not much Jewish in images of this monument and nothing in inscription, it was much better solution that have chest pit on the place of this.

massacre were killed as I said by different calculation from 33 000 to 100 000 people.

Victoria Khiterer (01:00:19.969)
Sorry, your sound disappeared. I don't hear you.

Waitman Beorn (01:00:24.715)
Sorry, I just wanted to move forward a little bit into the modern era because there's so much we could talk about with regards to the Soviet period. I highly recommend folks to pick up the book. It's a very good size and it covers lots of the stuff. But how does this... Because they're...

Victoria Khiterer (01:00:29.89)
You

Waitman Beorn (01:00:54.857)
There are now lots of arguably lots of memorials at Mabiyar, though still not a museum, which is very interesting. the debates about a museum on the site in modern Ukraine are quite interesting. What happens to efforts at memorialization once Ukraine becomes independent?

Victoria Khiterer (01:01:21.774)
Thank you very much for your question and I can say in 1991 I still live in Kiev and it was first year when Soviet Ukrainian authorities still exist, Soviet Union.

allowed commemoration of victims of Babi Yar. It was a Saray's meeting, furthermore, they provide state commemoration for victims of Babi Yar. And I remember how I walked through Main Street of Kiev, Krishchatyk, and there were some stands that explained what happened in Babi Yar, Babi Yar tragedy. And first time people openly talk that Jews were...

main victims of this tragedy. The first secretary of Communist Party of Ukraine and later first president of Ukraine Leonid Kravchuk apologized to Jewish people, publicly apologized to Jewish people and said we concealed the truth that we knew that the main victim of this tragedy was Jewish but due to

state anti-Semitism in Soviet Union, we cannot tell the truth. And so they admitted that the main victims and majority of victims of this tragedy were Jewish people. And in this year was first time built Jewish monument in Babi Yar, Menorah. It was 1991 and later appeared many other monuments.

that show basically contested memory over this space. As I mentioned, after the two days of initial massacre that organized Anzats group in Kiev, still two years, every Tuesday and Friday, Nazis executed their people.

Victoria Khiterer (01:03:19.795)
And they did execute their hidden Jews, but also prisoners of the war for some disobedience. Or they also executed their members of soccer team. They killed their partisans. They killed some disobedient Ukrainian nationalists that pushed to fly. The idea of independence of Ukraine.

and some Orthodox priests that protested against the execution of Jews. But I believe that among 100,000 victims of Baben Yar, about 70 to 80,000 were Jews. And the major problem that Jews were exterminated all, while other categories of population basically were executed for their resistance to Nazi regime.

Waitman Beorn (01:04:16.665)
I mean, again, I think this is such a. It's such a fascinating, but it's also a difficult concept and difficult topic because you have, you know, the very real suffering of other groups. But obviously, you know, Bobby R is very much a marker of a place that was was Jewish suffering. I mean, just just.

by numbers. mean, are one of the things I thought was interesting. Maybe you could talk a little bit about this, this push to or the the outrage distress by some people in in Keefe about having a Holocaust museum at Bobby are rather than having a just a museum of Bobby are that was not somehow a Holocaust museum. Some of you talk about some of the pushback.

not just from the public, but from scholars as well on that there for some reason there shouldn't be a Holocaust Museum of Bobby are there should be a museum that's the history of Bobby are which is not Holocaust. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I thought that was really fascinating.

Victoria Khiterer (01:05:29.733)
Yes, I am a member of Baben Yar Holocaust Memorial Center. I'm a member of Academic Council and I was with the Center basically from the time of establishment. Unfortunately, war completely interrupted the now of the Center on museum. There are some projects that still continue at the Center, archival projects.

preservation documents from archives, creation of digital copies and so on. But war takes all possible resources that could be used for construction of museum. And I truly believe that there are

is necessary Holocaust Museum at Babi Yar because this major Holocaust site for Ukraine, for former Soviet Union and I don't believe in museum that will call us just Babi Yar museum because it will return Soviet narrative about universal suffering of Soviet people. This is what the state

Soviets that everybody suffered. what is interesting is that before I immigrated from Kiev I disputed it with Ukrainian historians that told me everybody suffered. But I said none other nationality, all women, children, elderly people were totally exterminated.

there suffered people who were in active resistance to the Nazi regime. These people suffered. Other people may suffer from starvation or some other problems that brought Nazi occupation, but only Jews and Roma were direct targets for their ethnic background.

Victoria Khiterer (01:07:39.601)
And if talk about percentage of population that lost, for example, Russian, Ukrainian population, it would be significantly less that lost Jews. Jews, every family lost somebody at Baben Yar. My family lost...

second husband of my great-grandmother and also some other more distant relatives that could not leave Kiev. Also my grandparents lost many of their friends and neighbors in Babi Yar. So...

If talk about Russian Ukrainian families, yes, they may lose somebody, but not necessarily in Babi Yar, probably on the front, or probably don't lose even anybody because if you look on the pictures from 1942, 41 occupied Kiev, beginning in 43, you can see some happy girls that cheerfully spent time with German soldiers

And these people did not suffer in this degree. There are many pictures like this. And some even benefited from extermination of Jews because they occupied Jewish apartments and took Jewish property. So we cannot say that everybody equally suffered during the war. The degree of suffering was very different for the Jewish population and the non-Jewish population.

And deny right of Jews to build monument or museum in Baben Yar. Absolutely ridiculous. You can say in Auschwitz were killed along with million Jews, still about million non-Jews. So let's don't put in Auschwitz any Jewish monuments because they were killed also Poles or Soviet soldiers. So it absolutely ridiculous from my point of view.

Victoria Khiterer (01:09:45.007)
that made some local antisemites and some, we can say unfortunately not only antisemites, some Ukrainian historians and often these people never before researched history of Baben Yar. I look on state project, who created state project of this so-called Baben Yar museum.

I worked before with Gennady Boryak when I was 17 years old. My first job was in a historical archive. He was then director of some department of this archive. He researched peasant uprisings in Ukraine. This was his topic of historical research. Suddenly I saw him as director of this project creation of State Museum of Baben Yar.

It's not his topic, he didn't publish anything on this topic. And such people claim that they understand there and that Jews cannot create Holocaust museum in Kiev. It's very strange claim, I can say.

Waitman Beorn (01:10:54.516)
And that's really, I mean, that's a really great discussion of sort of the challenges here. And guess maybe we should close by thinking about, or I'm curious what you think about what the effect of the current war, the Russia's invasion of Ukraine is on, I mean, I guess on Bobby R directly talk a little about that, but also just on the history of the Holocaust and Holocaust memory in Ukraine.

Victoria Khiterer (01:11:22.569)
Unfortunately, this war destroyed the project of construction of museum, least postponed this project for many years, because this war already continued for four years. Before the started, construction of this museum but all construction was frozen as soon as the began. Furthermore, nobody will contribute now money, because Ukraine is in very poor economic shape.

due to the war going for weapons now to defend the independence of Ukraine. Furthermore, Russians twice attacked by rockets in territory of Baben Yar. So basically, no point to construct something that can be ruined tomorrow.

First time this attack of Russian rocket killed five people that walk in the vicinity of Babinyar. And second time, fortunately for people, it only hit the ground of Babinyar and did not kill anybody and did not destroy any monuments. But we can see that

When began the war Zelensky said that it's very symbolic that Russian rocket again hit the ground of Babinyar. And people that said never again can see that it happened again today. That memory of Babinyar under threat of destruction, monuments in Babinyar under threat of destruction from Russian rockets, drones and other explosive materials that Russia dropped over

territory of Ukraine and basically this destroyed all plans for construction of museum. Plan was that by this year of 85th anniversary of Baben Yar tragedy should be open museum in Baben Yar and now this museum cannot be open due to this war.

Waitman Beorn (01:13:32.359)
And I suspect that, you know, that's also taking its toll on, on scholars that are studying it. I mean, I know that, when I, I had been corresponding with somebody at the, at the, territory of terror museum in, in Lviv, when I was writing my book and, I had sent them an email at the very end of the process asking about a photograph and I think his name was Oleg and he was very nice, but he said, he wrote me back and he said, I'm sorry, I'm at the front right now.

I'm now a soldier in the war and I can't, I don't have access to the archives anymore because I'm not at the museum. I thought that was just indicative of the loss that this war is creating. I'm sure that it's having effects on museum staff and people that would have been PhD students or historians working on the topic in Ukraine who are now potentially being killed at the front and those kinds of things. The fact that it's

The war has also just put on hold the creation of the museum and probably endangered a number of sites that one might want to do investigations of or identify mass graves, these kinds of things throughout the country. So it's just kind of a kind of a tragedy all around. But before I guess, before we close, I will ask the question that I always ask, which is, what is

What is one book on the Holocaust that you'd recommend in this particular moment? It can obviously change,

Victoria Khiterer (01:15:05.567)
If people want to understand more about Kiev and Babi Yar, I recommend a lot a book of memoirs of Anatoly Kuznetsov, Babi Yar, a document in the of a novel. And it's a combination of documentary history and memoirs and it's very powerful. Why it's very powerful? Because

He was an eyewitness of Babi Yar tragedy when he was 12 years old. There some of his friends. He himself is Russian, half Ukrainian. He described how the local population reacts to Babi Yar tragedy, including the reaction of his family. His grandfather was an anti-Semite.

there was some limit for him of what bad can be done to Jews. When leaflets appeared in the city, his family thought that Jews will be resettled because such rumors intentionally spread Nazis. then his grandfather said, finally we get rid of Jews because they will be resettled somewhere. But when Jews were killed, this becomes shock for his family because not

They don't think that it's possible to exterminate so many thousand people, including women, children, elderly people, attitude change. Same change attitude.

towards Nazi occupation. At first they thought, because they saw Holodomor and Stalin repressions and poverty during Soviet regime, that could not be worse rulers than Soviet rulers. And his grandfather waited for Nazis, but it that Nazis were even more harsh, more...

Victoria Khiterer (01:17:09.207)
horrible for local population, not only Jews, but for entire population than Soviets.

conclusion of Kuznetsov who why still this book very interesting that he first compare Holodomor and Holocaust still before Timothy Snyder and he described both in his book and his conclusions that Baben Yar everywhere. He wrote that he during the war could perish 20 times for some very minor crimes that he did not or he

family did not give up all food to Nazis when they provide confiscation of food or that he did not denounce his Jewish friend, that he knew that escape from Babi Yar tragedy or something else. And this Babi Yar everywhere shows a level of despair of people who were in occupied cities.

but his family was, especially on level of his parents, more less intelligent, intellectual family. His mother was a school teacher and they read the books and so on. However,

Unfortunately, many families, indifferent from Kuznetsov's I can say did not feel much compassion for Jews. I read archival documents, there are many people who really celebrate the murder of Jews in Kiev.

Victoria Khiterer (01:18:50.69)
become quite cheerful that they acquired Jewish apartments or Jewish belongings and after Soviet Liberate Caves refused to return them to local Jews who returned from evacuation and from the front.

Waitman Beorn (01:19:08.453)
Well, that's a great recommendation. I can tell you that I've read that book as well. And if you do decide to get Babi Yar by Kuznetov, definitely get the most recent edition because it has the original text. It has the text that the Soviets took out that was censored. And then it has additional addendums that he added on after he republished it after he had fled the Soviet Union.

It's almost like an annotated text within a text, which you should really check out. And I will say this particular podcast episode also will pair well, as I mentioned at the beginning, with episode 68, which is with Shai Pilnick, who that episode we talked in detail about literature, literature responses to Bobby Yar to include Kuznetsov's work in detail. And so.

You know, thank you so much for everyone who's listened. Please, like I said, give us a like or subscribe. Tell your friends. All presses could press it in that sense. And to Victoria, thank you so much for taking the time to to tell us about Bobby.

Victoria Khiterer (01:20:25.56)
Thank you very much for attention to my work and thank you for attention to this very important topic.